Hi, im interested in purchase some drivers (50 pcs) to build some line array as front speakers of my HT .
What driver/model recommend me to purchase? Maybe some TC9s,
Was thinking about to use this FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" Professional Full-Range Woofer 8 Ohm will works as line array?
What driver/model recommend me to purchase? Maybe some TC9s,
Was thinking about to use this FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" Professional Full-Range Woofer 8 Ohm will works as line array?
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TC9 is the classical choice, but Faital 3FE and 4FE, Mark Audio CHN-50, SB65WBAC25, Scanspeak 10F series and some others are probally also fit.
I think the TC9 is a favorite because of it's size/performance ratio. It's just big enough (Sd x x-max) to work as a complete full range solution (after EQ) while being small enough to keep the onset of comb filter problems at a high enough frequency (to keep it out of voices etc.) and still work well at off axis angles. It doesn't hurt that it's affordable. 😉
The above is a simulation, done with VituixCAD of an array of 25x TC9 without shading. You see the lobing at ~4-5 KHz that points at the ceiling/floor? Depending on where that ceiling is (around 50-55 degree in my case, ceiling height 3 meter), it will cause some frequency ripple starting at about 5 KHz.
That floor/ceiling bounce will move up in frequency when you use a smaller driver. It will move down in frequency if you use bigger drivers.
** The ripple would be there in some shape or form with a single driver too, as that would not have the vertical directivity of an array.** see end of post.
Lets see another view:
You see the peaks and dips start at ~5kHz too, at about a 2.7 meter listening distance. If you move further away from the array, the comb pattern will move up in frequency. So it all depends on what size driver and the listening distance. And you'll need EQ, preferably done at the most used listening spot/distance. In an untreated room you can use an average of multiple measurement points, for instance along a couch. If you have treatment on early wall refection points you can get away with single point measurements. Basically arrays like these light up parallel planes, while everything else sort of escapes them. So they don't over-react on tables or chairs in the room, but do light up parallel walls. Be advised that enclosure corners/ridges are parallel too. Big enough round-overs on the enclosure go a long way to avoid diffraction as it happens at every driver, that's 25x!
- do note the DI, that's the bright red line in the left middle graph. If you compare it to measurements from the favorites according to Harmon Theory (Toole) it certainly isn't a bad score!
The FaitalPRO 4FE35 is a bit bigger than the TC9, meaning the comb problems will start at a slightly lower frequency.
If you listen from slightly further away, it would not be that different though than if one would sit closer and use a smaller driver.
Basically you'd want a driver that has a clean looking IR and preferably a slightly rising frequency response. No ringing top end, as that would not work well after being arrayed. And choose one you like (after a bit of EQ to cope with the rising response 😉), you'll get it back on steroids!
You're going to need EQ, so do plan for that.
Comparison of a single driver under the same conditions:
Plot of a single driver. Note that the orange line is the prediction of the frequency at the listening spot. These graphs presented here only have floor and ceiling reflections active, no side and back walls.
Sorry for the long winded response. 🙂
The above is a simulation, done with VituixCAD of an array of 25x TC9 without shading. You see the lobing at ~4-5 KHz that points at the ceiling/floor? Depending on where that ceiling is (around 50-55 degree in my case, ceiling height 3 meter), it will cause some frequency ripple starting at about 5 KHz.
That floor/ceiling bounce will move up in frequency when you use a smaller driver. It will move down in frequency if you use bigger drivers.
** The ripple would be there in some shape or form with a single driver too, as that would not have the vertical directivity of an array.** see end of post.
Lets see another view:
You see the peaks and dips start at ~5kHz too, at about a 2.7 meter listening distance. If you move further away from the array, the comb pattern will move up in frequency. So it all depends on what size driver and the listening distance. And you'll need EQ, preferably done at the most used listening spot/distance. In an untreated room you can use an average of multiple measurement points, for instance along a couch. If you have treatment on early wall refection points you can get away with single point measurements. Basically arrays like these light up parallel planes, while everything else sort of escapes them. So they don't over-react on tables or chairs in the room, but do light up parallel walls. Be advised that enclosure corners/ridges are parallel too. Big enough round-overs on the enclosure go a long way to avoid diffraction as it happens at every driver, that's 25x!
- do note the DI, that's the bright red line in the left middle graph. If you compare it to measurements from the favorites according to Harmon Theory (Toole) it certainly isn't a bad score!
The FaitalPRO 4FE35 is a bit bigger than the TC9, meaning the comb problems will start at a slightly lower frequency.
If you listen from slightly further away, it would not be that different though than if one would sit closer and use a smaller driver.
Basically you'd want a driver that has a clean looking IR and preferably a slightly rising frequency response. No ringing top end, as that would not work well after being arrayed. And choose one you like (after a bit of EQ to cope with the rising response 😉), you'll get it back on steroids!
You're going to need EQ, so do plan for that.
Comparison of a single driver under the same conditions:
Plot of a single driver. Note that the orange line is the prediction of the frequency at the listening spot. These graphs presented here only have floor and ceiling reflections active, no side and back walls.
Sorry for the long winded response. 🙂
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Thanks! Main problem is that im from Argentina, and we cant make internarional purchases with more than 3 unit per product. so i need to try to find some local supplier.
and the only that i can get here of the recommended from you are
Updated Prices!
3" faital 3fe22 are like 24USD
3" faital 3fe25 are like 18USD (looks like this will be the best choice)
4" faital 4fe30 are like 35USD
4" faital 4fe32 are like 35USD
4" faital 4fe35 are like 25USD
6" faital 6fe200 are like 40USD
I mainly want to make 2 floorstanding (line array) one center channel and two back channels (for 5.1 system)
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FaitalPRO 3FE25 would be the better one of those for line arrays i think.
And that rule is quiet stupid, why only 3? If it's to protect the local market, that won't work. Most people buying something won't need 3 pieces. And Faital is italian with HQ in Milan, so not a local company.
And that rule is quiet stupid, why only 3? If it's to protect the local market, that won't work. Most people buying something won't need 3 pieces. And Faital is italian with HQ in Milan, so not a local company.
companies like Mouser, RSComponent and Digi-Key have local distributors that might help in getting some items.
For example, DigiKey would have the TC9... you'd probably need to order from them and wait a bit, but it could be a good idea:
https://www.digikey.com/es/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125
For example, DigiKey would have the TC9... you'd probably need to order from them and wait a bit, but it could be a good idea:
https://www.digikey.com/es/products/detail/peerless-by-tymphany/TC9FD18-08/6211125
Im really happy with the faital prices here! i cant beliave it! too competitive, like US price!
Looks like will use some 12 or 15inch one as subwoofer too 🙂
Looks like will use some 12 or 15inch one as subwoofer too 🙂
Well welcome to Argentina and stupid Argentina rules, we can spend 1500USD / purchase less than 50KG and just 3 units/product.
Incredible right?
Will ask digiket, but last time they are limited to 3 units too. Btw, looks like faital are at good price here, i cant beliave it.
3FE25 does look good! A TC9 has 2.55 mm x-max, but is less sensitive. The 3FE25 has 1.8 mm but plenty of room before failure (x-damage is 7,9mm).
will purchase the 3FE25 then!
Tomorrow will post the room size to get some recommendations about size of the line array and volume!
Thanks!
Tomorrow will post the room size to get some recommendations about size of the line array and volume!
Thanks!
will purchase 3FE23.
How many recommend me to use per side? distance from floor to ceiling are 2.4m
How many recommend me to use per side? distance from floor to ceiling are 2.4m
The more the merrier. Think about how to connect them - some numbers are harder to find a good solution for. You will need to do groups in series and paralell and want even power distribution per driver in the end. Not trivial. And a decent overall impedance for your amps. Think it over!
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Do note that Faital have a quoted Xmax different from other manufacturers - they quote "(winding depth - magnetic gap depth)/2] + (magnetic gap depth/3)".
For the 3FE25 (8 ohm) the difference between gap height and coil height is only 1mm.
Still probably OK for a large line array.
I really like the 3FE22 (25 is good too, I assume) and If I ever build a line array, it will be with these. I am using them in different projects amd was lucky to get 10 pieces at almost 50% discount🙂
The true physical xmax calculation i use is coil height minus gap height divided by 2, so simply put voice coil over / underhang. The other manufacturer specific methods are too optimistic and non-linear.
Obviously true xmax is arbitrary depending on what level of THD you're willing to accept and the physical motor geometry and design, but the first method is very specific when comparing different brands. To me, an xmax of 1mm represents a midrange driver. A woofer or midbass should at least have 3mm xmax to make it useful as a true LF driver. An underhung motor is usually more linear throughout its physical xmax compared to a traditional overhung design and lower in odd order HD at the limit.
Obviously true xmax is arbitrary depending on what level of THD you're willing to accept and the physical motor geometry and design, but the first method is very specific when comparing different brands. To me, an xmax of 1mm represents a midrange driver. A woofer or midbass should at least have 3mm xmax to make it useful as a true LF driver. An underhung motor is usually more linear throughout its physical xmax compared to a traditional overhung design and lower in odd order HD at the limit.
The way Faital measure Xmax isn't without merit, since arrangements close to even-hung don't increase in distortion as suddenly as arrangements that are heavily under or over-hung. Basically the length of coil in the gap reduces more slowly as 'true xmax' (for lack of a better term) is exceeded. There are Fostex drivers with <0.5mm of 'true xmax' and we know they don't subjectively sound completely horrible when pushed to say twice or 3x that because they are close to an even-hung design - even at twice xmax most of the coil is still in the gap, whereas a heavily under/overhung design may have the coil completely out of the gap at twice xmax. Even hung (or close to) produces the highest possible sensitivity, which is the motivation for using this arrangement.
The fairest comparison, at least on paper would be to apply the same xmax formula to the TC9, which we can't do unless someone measures the coil length and gap height as this info hasn't been published as far as I'm aware? For a heavily over or underhung design that formula will give a negligible increase in calculated xmax (<1/3 increase).
The overall best way is to actually measure distortion versus SPL and see which performs better for the SPL you need. My hunch is that since TC9 still has superior xmax it will be cleaner in the bass, while Faital will be cleaner above 1kHz or so.
The fairest comparison, at least on paper would be to apply the same xmax formula to the TC9, which we can't do unless someone measures the coil length and gap height as this info hasn't been published as far as I'm aware? For a heavily over or underhung design that formula will give a negligible increase in calculated xmax (<1/3 increase).
The overall best way is to actually measure distortion versus SPL and see which performs better for the SPL you need. My hunch is that since TC9 still has superior xmax it will be cleaner in the bass, while Faital will be cleaner above 1kHz or so.
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Well guys, was hard to find the Faital again :/
Just can get this ones right now
Faittal PRO 3fe22 - 20USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401000100
Faittal PRO 4fe32 - 25USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401005100
Faittal PRO 4fe35 - 25USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401005150
think that the best options are between 4FE32 and 3FE22. Which one recommend me?
I want to use (25 pcs per side) and want to check how many for center and rear channels.
Just can get this ones right now
Faittal PRO 3fe22 - 20USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401000100
Faittal PRO 4fe32 - 25USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401005100
Faittal PRO 4fe35 - 25USD - https://faitalpro.com/es/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401005150
think that the best options are between 4FE32 and 3FE22. Which one recommend me?
I want to use (25 pcs per side) and want to check how many for center and rear channels.