Hi,
Currently trying to decide on the tweeter.
Illuminator BE - 4 ohm nominal : http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-664000.pdf
Revelator BE - 8 ohm nominal : http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2908-714000.pdf
The drivers I will be paring them with are the Volt RV3143 (8 ohms) and the ATC SM75-150 (16 ohm). I will be using passive crossovers, and they will be powered by Hypex NCore NC400 monoblocks.
From the few odd people I've managed to get an opinion from who have used both, they reckon for them to sound the same.
I don't profess to be a crossover expert, but if they sound quite similar, it appears the revelator BE might be the 'friendlier' load from a crossover perspective and taking into account the above drivers?
I'm still tempted to pick the Illuminator BE version purely as I know its worked with the ATC mid in the past from others experiences rather well, and 4 ohm nominal load on a tweeter wouldn't even cause the NCores to raise an eyebrow.
Any perspectives/experiences welcome!
Currently trying to decide on the tweeter.
Illuminator BE - 4 ohm nominal : http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-664000.pdf
Revelator BE - 8 ohm nominal : http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2908-714000.pdf
The drivers I will be paring them with are the Volt RV3143 (8 ohms) and the ATC SM75-150 (16 ohm). I will be using passive crossovers, and they will be powered by Hypex NCore NC400 monoblocks.
From the few odd people I've managed to get an opinion from who have used both, they reckon for them to sound the same.
I don't profess to be a crossover expert, but if they sound quite similar, it appears the revelator BE might be the 'friendlier' load from a crossover perspective and taking into account the above drivers?
I'm still tempted to pick the Illuminator BE version purely as I know its worked with the ATC mid in the past from others experiences rather well, and 4 ohm nominal load on a tweeter wouldn't even cause the NCores to raise an eyebrow.
Any perspectives/experiences welcome!
They're both very good. The Revelator edges it in performance, at a heck of a price, and the end results will likely come down to implementation as much as the quality of the drivers.
Since it's a passive system, you'll presumably be padding the tweeter down a bit, so assuming the resistor is after the filter network, you'll get a slightly higher impedance that way; likewise, the Hypex monoblocks will not be too troubled by the load unless you go crazy with notch filters etc. What does trigger a few alarm bells though is that you're talking about very expensive drivers, but adding 'don't profess to be an XO expert.' OK, so anybody who calls themselves an expert in any subject is best avoided, since they usually have far too high an opinion of their own abilities 😉 but the minor lack of confidence does give a bit of pause.
Since it's a passive system, you'll presumably be padding the tweeter down a bit, so assuming the resistor is after the filter network, you'll get a slightly higher impedance that way; likewise, the Hypex monoblocks will not be too troubled by the load unless you go crazy with notch filters etc. What does trigger a few alarm bells though is that you're talking about very expensive drivers, but adding 'don't profess to be an XO expert.' OK, so anybody who calls themselves an expert in any subject is best avoided, since they usually have far too high an opinion of their own abilities 😉 but the minor lack of confidence does give a bit of pause.
For what it's worth I'm going to start off with the Wilmslow Prestige kit which I've already heard in action, and treat them as the baseline.
They're 20mins drive from my home so I don't mind going back if there's issues. And yes I've read the recent threads, but I've also heard their demo pair in action and was pretty impressed indeed.
They're 20mins drive from my home so I don't mind going back if there's issues. And yes I've read the recent threads, but I've also heard their demo pair in action and was pretty impressed indeed.
That's a lot of $ for a tweeter that, on paper, doesn't have as good of performance as a Heil AMT for $100 less. Sure they are huge but sound fantastic with a very uniform and wide polar. The detail, resolution, and transient response with the AMT are very nice. Just throwing out something for you to consider. The AMT's also have an impedance curve that is flat like a resistor.
Thanks, I'll certainly have a look. Part of the reason I'm swinging towards the scanspeak units is that I know they work well with the atc midrange. From what I've been investigating, simply trying to match tweeters on the basis of measurements is a bit pot luck.
The Heil AMT is very versatile in XO as it has a flat impedance curve (or line, I should say). It can XO anywhere from 750Hz on up. It has a very low impedance of 3ohms but a Hypex class D should handle it no problem. I have XO it as low as 600Hz but HD starts to rise. 750Hz works as well as 1kHz, 1.5kHz, 2.5kHz and 3.5kHz. They all work and sound well if you have the good mids to match. I used a B&C 6MDN44 and they were a great match in sensitivity and tonal quality as well as low distortion.
Indeed it is. Unfortunately.
The Scan beryllium units are amongst the top hard-dome (or inverted dome) models on the market; the only ones realistically in the same performance bracket are the high end models from Seas, Accuton and Transducer Labs. Otherwise you'd need to consider changing topology away from domes into very different units -the current pick probably being Beyma's TPL-150.
As for the Scans -they follow their current favoured design approach, high-ish 2nd order < ~1.5KHz, very low higher order products throughout. Essentially pistonic action right through the audible BW, with the main breakup well above 30KHz, avoiding problems some run into with tweeters having their major 'let go' point in the mid-high 20KHz region. TBH, if I were spending my own money on a high end hard dome, I'd probably pick an Accuton or T Labs, but that's just me.
I've heard the drivers with a scanspeak 9900 and with exception to the occasional hard edge they were fantastic, hence just switching the tweeter to one that's just as detailed (or maybe more so) but with a more natural edge.
Until I move into active crossovers I think (sadly) playing it a little safe as a starting point might be best.
Out of interest, from what makes people think the revelator version has the edge?
Until I move into active crossovers I think (sadly) playing it a little safe as a starting point might be best.
Out of interest, from what makes people think the revelator version has the edge?
Technically it has a slightly more advanced motor & lower distortion. We're talking matters of degree -they're both up there. Albeit at a price.
In the end, I spotted something interesting in both the PDFs and what Troel had to say about his application of the BE revelator
from ATS-4 :
"The new 7140 beryllium dome is an easy tweeter - and it is not. The 7140 Revelator dome has a special frequency response with lot of energy in the 4-8 kHz range, actually declining some 5 dB from 4 kHz to 20 kHz, thus takes some equalisation to reduce upper treble (5000-10000 Hz) and to reduce sibilance. "
Given that the current crossover is designed for the ScanSpeak 9900 which appears to have a pretty similar frequency response to that of the illuminator BE, I think i'll start with that. Wilmslow said they will update the crossover for the BE tweeter, and from the comments I've read, I'll double verify!
from ATS-4 :
"The new 7140 beryllium dome is an easy tweeter - and it is not. The 7140 Revelator dome has a special frequency response with lot of energy in the 4-8 kHz range, actually declining some 5 dB from 4 kHz to 20 kHz, thus takes some equalisation to reduce upper treble (5000-10000 Hz) and to reduce sibilance. "
Given that the current crossover is designed for the ScanSpeak 9900 which appears to have a pretty similar frequency response to that of the illuminator BE, I think i'll start with that. Wilmslow said they will update the crossover for the BE tweeter, and from the comments I've read, I'll double verify!
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+1 for AMT's
The ATC Dome plays very well up to about 3.5 kHz. From that point on the smaller ESS or Mundorf AMT's play very nice. I wouldn't go with the bigger Heils nor the Beyma TPL150. The vertical dispersion doen't match with the ATC dome. In that case the Scanspeak BE dome would do a much better job. Still do, my gutfeeling tells me that the soft dome would be a better match in tonality, but then again, I haven't heard the scanspeak BE domes. All I know is that the AMT's are miles ahead of the scan soft domes IMHO.
The ATC Dome plays very well up to about 3.5 kHz. From that point on the smaller ESS or Mundorf AMT's play very nice. I wouldn't go with the bigger Heils nor the Beyma TPL150. The vertical dispersion doen't match with the ATC dome. In that case the Scanspeak BE dome would do a much better job. Still do, my gutfeeling tells me that the soft dome would be a better match in tonality, but then again, I haven't heard the scanspeak BE domes. All I know is that the AMT's are miles ahead of the scan soft domes IMHO.
Just so, although I'd be quite happy with the Beyma -it simply doesn't require a dedicated midrange if the woofer / midbass is selected well.
Scans Be domes are very good, although they wouldn't be my first choice of hard-dome tweeter. The 9900 is still up there amongst soft domes, even though it was designed on stone tablets by mammoth. I'd probably still take it over the more recent soft-dome Revelator models. But then -I'd take SB's Satori tweeter over those too.
Scans Be domes are very good, although they wouldn't be my first choice of hard-dome tweeter. The 9900 is still up there amongst soft domes, even though it was designed on stone tablets by mammoth. I'd probably still take it over the more recent soft-dome Revelator models. But then -I'd take SB's Satori tweeter over those too.
I've been looking at that one lately but I've read quite a few posts that say it sounds a bit harsh.
It makes me wonder if it's a crossover problem because they are used in the top of the range Living Voice OBX RW.
This is going to be critical.. but:
The "ring" types are pretty much "posers" - they promise an extended low freq. response, but they really aren't designed for it. Worse, when you are paying for Be - most of what you are paying for is relegated to the top two octaves - it's kind of like a super-tweeter with not exactly fantastic off-axis response. What's the point of that?
Now, IF you use a decent-size waveguide and drop the pressure on the low end - then they start making more sense.
So what then? Considering your midbass driver and your initial selection (lower extension + hard dome), probably a transducer labs driver with a bit more low freq. extension. As to their subjective qualities and specific selection you'll need to ask others - but the best solution probably isn't going to be their Be driver. 😱
I'm just not in a position to go testing different tweeters with this combination, at the momemt. Hence playing it safe for now. Will certainly bare it in mind though.
It's not going to be critical because you are using the ATC mid.. (..the problem with it is getting the tweeter physically close enough to it.)
All else equal, go with the driver that has the lower mechanical resistance - the revelator which will have better low-level detail as a result. Though choose your passive components *very* carefully, otherwise you can damp-out all that goodness with a poor choice of capacitors and resistors.
Oh, also be very careful with driver's inset on the baffle.
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My only issue with going for the lower mechanical resistance driver is simply having a more complex crossover to compensate for its slightly strange frequency response above 4k+.
Wilmslow tend to use Ansar Supersound as capacitors and Monacor for resistors. I was going to start from there, then build out different versions using the likes of Mundorf Supremes or similar quality combinations... oh the fun of DIY.
Wilmslow tend to use Ansar Supersound as capacitors and Monacor for resistors. I was going to start from there, then build out different versions using the likes of Mundorf Supremes or similar quality combinations... oh the fun of DIY.
To the contray :
Troel ScanSpeak tweeter measurements
Both berylliums are measured here. Not much in it after all... or am I just reading this wrong?
Troel ScanSpeak tweeter measurements
Both berylliums are measured here. Not much in it after all... or am I just reading this wrong?
No, you are reading it correctly.
Note the final graph and the notes on it. The baffle will heavily influence the low end of the driver (depending on the baffle's shape/size).
Also, his "sweeps"/freq. response are from a half meter, and the his mic. isn't calibrated (..and is off a bit in the top octave).
Ok, one final plug for the Heil AMT and I will leave it alone as this is a Be dome thread. Look at the polar response and the low end extension.
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