Hi All,
I am looking for replacement tweeters for my beloved Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home speakers.
I was quoted $800 for a pair from the North American distributor with a lead time of 90 days (provided that the manufacturer in Italy still has some on hand).
There is no way that is going to happen so I looked into alternatives.
I understand that Sonus Faber sourced the tweeters for that series from Vifa. Further investigation revealed that a Vifa DX25TG59-04 would be a drop-in replacement as would a Scanspeak d2604-830000. Both tweeters share the same physical dimensions but there are some differences in their electrical and mechanical properties according to their respective spec sheets. Please refer to the attachments.
Unfortunately I an not well versed in interpreting most of those parameters but I am led to believe that the Scanspeak tweeters are superior. Now its worth mentioning that I am not necessarily looking to improve upon the originals as I was completely satisfied with their performance. I chose that particular speaker because it strikes the perfect balance of smoothness and detail in the top end. I am quite intolerant of bright speakers.
If one of the alternate tweeters prove to be superior or more resolving than the original which I imagine may be likely as they are more than 20 years old now, so be it, but not at the expense of being bright.
That said, which of these two tweeters would be a better choice, and why?
I welcome and appreciate all comments.
Happy New Year 🙂
I am looking for replacement tweeters for my beloved Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home speakers.
I was quoted $800 for a pair from the North American distributor with a lead time of 90 days (provided that the manufacturer in Italy still has some on hand).
There is no way that is going to happen so I looked into alternatives.
I understand that Sonus Faber sourced the tweeters for that series from Vifa. Further investigation revealed that a Vifa DX25TG59-04 would be a drop-in replacement as would a Scanspeak d2604-830000. Both tweeters share the same physical dimensions but there are some differences in their electrical and mechanical properties according to their respective spec sheets. Please refer to the attachments.
Unfortunately I an not well versed in interpreting most of those parameters but I am led to believe that the Scanspeak tweeters are superior. Now its worth mentioning that I am not necessarily looking to improve upon the originals as I was completely satisfied with their performance. I chose that particular speaker because it strikes the perfect balance of smoothness and detail in the top end. I am quite intolerant of bright speakers.
If one of the alternate tweeters prove to be superior or more resolving than the original which I imagine may be likely as they are more than 20 years old now, so be it, but not at the expense of being bright.
That said, which of these two tweeters would be a better choice, and why?
I welcome and appreciate all comments.
Happy New Year 🙂
Member
Joined 2003
Those are quite similar tweeters in general, but if as you say you are very sensitive to high frequency a simple drop in into existing crossover may result in altered HF representation. Ideally, you want to measure and tweak the crossover. Is there are any chance you can get a spec sheet from the Sonos assuming how old is this model? That would help us to help you a lot. Have you considered searching second hand market?
If you find a tweeter with exactly the same impedance vs frequency and acoustic output vs frequency you will be fine. So I would be studying the back of the existing tweeter to see if you can figure out exactly what company made it and what model it is. When Stereophile reviewed it they said "¾" silk-domed, ferrofluid-cooled SEAS tweeter." So head over to https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-seas/ and look for a 19 mm silk dome with ferro fluid. If not, you are looking at redesigning the crossover to work with a different tweeter or you could put in any tweeter that fits and then fix the response with a digital signal processor. Or scrap the passive crossover and make the whole thing a multi amp active speaker with digital crossover like a miniDSP.
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Thanks to all that have chimed in so far.
DcibeL- Both the Vifa and Scanspeak are available locally and quite inexpensive considering what the SF speakers initially cost, $32 and $61 respectively. A far cry from $800...
PKI- A few guys over on Audiokarma had success with the Scanspeak tweeter. In both cases, that tweeter was installed in smaller pairs of 2 way, SF Concerto and Concertino models which employ the same tweeter as the 2.5 way Grand Piano. In both cases, the tweeters that were replaced were completely dead or close to it so they really didnt have any reference to the new tweeters, only that they are pleased with the results.
The SFGPH is stated as having a sensitivity of 90db. Its quite possible that sensitivity of the original is close to the replacements Im considering. Incidentally, the tweeter is high passed at 3khz in what appears to be a second order filter. I`ve attached a picture of the crossover.
I would think that there about 2 chances of getting any technical information from the SF, slim and none based what it took to get a reply for the replacements. They cant seem to be bothered with 20 year old models.
A search in the used market didn't yield much either, past or present. Being as rare as they are, if a pair can be sourced it will surely command top dollar with no guarantee that they would be in better condition than the ones I currently have.
Olsond3- The Stereophile review you are referring to is the older Concerto series and not the Home series. The two series shared little, if anything at all. Different topology`s, drivers, filters,enclosures etc.
Thankfully some folks were able to source off the shelf SEAS tweeters and had nothing but good things to report. Looking at the original tweeter, the Vifa and the Scanspeak straight-on, less the plastic mounting plates, they look identical.
DcibeL- Both the Vifa and Scanspeak are available locally and quite inexpensive considering what the SF speakers initially cost, $32 and $61 respectively. A far cry from $800...
PKI- A few guys over on Audiokarma had success with the Scanspeak tweeter. In both cases, that tweeter was installed in smaller pairs of 2 way, SF Concerto and Concertino models which employ the same tweeter as the 2.5 way Grand Piano. In both cases, the tweeters that were replaced were completely dead or close to it so they really didnt have any reference to the new tweeters, only that they are pleased with the results.
The SFGPH is stated as having a sensitivity of 90db. Its quite possible that sensitivity of the original is close to the replacements Im considering. Incidentally, the tweeter is high passed at 3khz in what appears to be a second order filter. I`ve attached a picture of the crossover.
I would think that there about 2 chances of getting any technical information from the SF, slim and none based what it took to get a reply for the replacements. They cant seem to be bothered with 20 year old models.
A search in the used market didn't yield much either, past or present. Being as rare as they are, if a pair can be sourced it will surely command top dollar with no guarantee that they would be in better condition than the ones I currently have.
Olsond3- The Stereophile review you are referring to is the older Concerto series and not the Home series. The two series shared little, if anything at all. Different topology`s, drivers, filters,enclosures etc.
Thankfully some folks were able to source off the shelf SEAS tweeters and had nothing but good things to report. Looking at the original tweeter, the Vifa and the Scanspeak straight-on, less the plastic mounting plates, they look identical.
Attachments
SF used mainly Scan Speak to justify their high price for the most part. I would use the Scan over the Vifa for that reason. Either way you won’t be far off.
If your speaker is the one in this link: (Grand Piano Home) then I'm not sure that either of the proposed tweeters are good candidates for a drop in replacement. At least the faceplate is very different.
For sure the Grand Piano Home is not the speaker reviewed by Stereophile (Stereophile review) which appears to have a standard SS 3/4" tweeter.
The first link has a photo of the specs, showing that the Grand Piano Home uses a 1" tweeter, but there aren't any suggestion on who is the real mfg of this tweeter.
What I'd do: remove the tweeter, and remove the faceplace from it (unscrew the 3 inner screws where there is the grille), and post photos. If the tweeter is Vifa it should be pretty evident. However the dome and motor of the DX25TG59 can't be an exact replacement in your case as this tweeter is newer than yours and is a mod of the older DX25TG09 tweeter with a slightly different SPL (IIRC the new one is slightly more sensitive). A trace of the existing crossover can offer a clue of what is needed in the case of a tweeter swap, maybe a simple different padding resistor.
Ralf
Have a look at the attachment where a Scanspeak is pictured beside an oem SF. All that is required is that the original SF faceplate is transfered over to the new diaphragm/motor assembly.
Something else interesting, apparently both the Scanspeak and Vifa diaphragms are interchangeable!
https://solen.ca/en/products/scan-speak-290073-replacement-dome-d2604-dx25
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Frankly, you should dismantle one from the loudspeaker and drop a photograph here. Maybe just by measuring the dimension you will know if a Vifa Peereless or the SS ! And also you will will se how it lokks without the face plate that looks to be made indeed to tame off a beaming or because it is a hard dome... Open the box to see how is looking the cat !
There is no question, the original is a Vifa as documented in several reviews. I`ve attached pictures of the Scanspeak and the original. The Vifa is identical to the Scanspeak.
Attachments
Why do you want to replace the original tweeters? And you could probably swap the VCA, be it the ferrofluid should be topped up too.
Photo of the back please, maybe also without the faceplace. The drivers in the photo posted before doesn't look quite equal, the Vifa (edit: the SS) one has a bigger magnet.
Having said this, for the cost involved, if your original drivers are blown, buy a couple of new DX25 and swap the faceplate, and see or better hear what happens. If the problem is thickened ferrofluid then remove the old and replenish with new.
Ralf
Having said this, for the cost involved, if your original drivers are blown, buy a couple of new DX25 and swap the faceplate, and see or better hear what happens. If the problem is thickened ferrofluid then remove the old and replenish with new.
Ralf
the truncated Sonuus Faber face plate must cope the three screw holes of the new tweeters, I will focuse on that to avoid hassle.
Some background; this is the second pair of GPH that I own. I foolishly parted ways with my first pair back in 2010 and I`ve been chasing that sonic signature ever since. When this pair came up for sale, I seized the opportunity. The seller and original owner, had already dismantled his system so measurements or listening tests couldn't be made. I was only able to do a DCR and battery test that confirmed free moving cones and at least continuity in the tweeters voicecoils.
When the speakers were installed back home, I was quite disappointed to find that the they sounded dull with no sparkle whatsoever, nothing like what my first pair sounded like. The tweeters were indeed working but very limited in bandwidth and amplitude.
I removed the little 3 point spider protectors in front of the domes that are tension held in place by the 3 TORX heads and applied gentle pressure to the domes. There was no movement.
My initial thought was that the ferrofluid had either coagulated or dried up completely, I`ve seen that happen with JBL compression drivers.
Disassembling the the tweeters revealed a nasty surprise, the pole pieces had shifted and pinched the voicecoils. $hit.. How that could have happened, God only knows.
The scenario was not good, Christmas and no music.
After some brainstorming, I decided to take a radical approach as I had little to lose and everything to gain at that point.
I bored a 1/4" hole through the pole piece. The backplate already had an opening that was slightly larger in diameter so my logic was to center the pole piece as best as I could and hold it in place with a
1/4-20 bolt and nut. I was led to believe that the rear of the pole piece and the front of the back plate where the two met were conical in shape and the pole piece could be rotated. The pole piece needed to be "clocked" into a position were it was concentric with the magnet after being torqued down which was not always possible, even when using shims.
After several tries, an eye-balled position was settled on where the coil and diaphragm was able to move freely in both positions, well beyond the published Xmax spec.
I then ran swept sine waves and pink noise throughout their operational range and measured the response on a FFT analyzer. They both measured perfectly and identically🙂
Back into place they went and the magic came back, musical bliss.
Now, Im sure that wasnt the right approach to take but the ends did justify the means. This type of ghetto repair does not sit well with my OCD, hence my original post.
When the speakers were installed back home, I was quite disappointed to find that the they sounded dull with no sparkle whatsoever, nothing like what my first pair sounded like. The tweeters were indeed working but very limited in bandwidth and amplitude.
I removed the little 3 point spider protectors in front of the domes that are tension held in place by the 3 TORX heads and applied gentle pressure to the domes. There was no movement.
My initial thought was that the ferrofluid had either coagulated or dried up completely, I`ve seen that happen with JBL compression drivers.
Disassembling the the tweeters revealed a nasty surprise, the pole pieces had shifted and pinched the voicecoils. $hit.. How that could have happened, God only knows.
The scenario was not good, Christmas and no music.
After some brainstorming, I decided to take a radical approach as I had little to lose and everything to gain at that point.
I bored a 1/4" hole through the pole piece. The backplate already had an opening that was slightly larger in diameter so my logic was to center the pole piece as best as I could and hold it in place with a
1/4-20 bolt and nut. I was led to believe that the rear of the pole piece and the front of the back plate where the two met were conical in shape and the pole piece could be rotated. The pole piece needed to be "clocked" into a position were it was concentric with the magnet after being torqued down which was not always possible, even when using shims.
After several tries, an eye-balled position was settled on where the coil and diaphragm was able to move freely in both positions, well beyond the published Xmax spec.
I then ran swept sine waves and pink noise throughout their operational range and measured the response on a FFT analyzer. They both measured perfectly and identically🙂
Back into place they went and the magic came back, musical bliss.
Now, Im sure that wasnt the right approach to take but the ends did justify the means. This type of ghetto repair does not sit well with my OCD, hence my original post.
the older Peereless Vifa is still existing : http://www.wilaudio.com/fr/aigu/12-dx25tg-09-04.html
Make sure the owner has not changed capacitors or resistors as well... it also voice the speakers a lot...
Too bad there is this truncated face plate, cause there are a lot of tweeter than may cope your tastes about smooth and detailled (laidback?).
Now if mechanilly speaking the tweeter are ok now, it is quite easy to wash the voice coil and gap if they had ferrofluid and recharge them for 15 euros/usd/your fav currency . Imo if old > let say over 25 yo, the lythics filter value may have drifted, and even if only in the bass section of the filter, it affects enough how the high end sounds at the end whatever the tweeter filter is made of film caps I believe the less easy game is to find out the exacts values of the lythic caps when refurbishing an old loudspeakers if you want to recapture exactly the sound they have (anf if the drivers are still rigth)... It should not be so complicate with some try and error, few caps and a cheap capacitor measurement tool.
Make sure the owner has not changed capacitors or resistors as well... it also voice the speakers a lot...
Too bad there is this truncated face plate, cause there are a lot of tweeter than may cope your tastes about smooth and detailled (laidback?).
Now if mechanilly speaking the tweeter are ok now, it is quite easy to wash the voice coil and gap if they had ferrofluid and recharge them for 15 euros/usd/your fav currency . Imo if old > let say over 25 yo, the lythics filter value may have drifted, and even if only in the bass section of the filter, it affects enough how the high end sounds at the end whatever the tweeter filter is made of film caps I believe the less easy game is to find out the exacts values of the lythic caps when refurbishing an old loudspeakers if you want to recapture exactly the sound they have (anf if the drivers are still rigth)... It should not be so complicate with some try and error, few caps and a cheap capacitor measurement tool.
This is something not to do. A typical tweeter has a xmax of a mere 0.1 mm, and the VC fits in the gap with very small tolerance. It is very unlikely you can apply a uniform and gentle pressure to the dome in order to move the VC without having it rub.
Having said this, the damage you have is serious and depends on other factors, but without it you could have damaged the tweeters in case of a simple thickened ferrofluid.
As to your original question, buy a couple of new Vifa DX25TG59 and be prepared to slightly alter the crossover in order to take into account the maybe 1dB of difference of the new tweeters in respect to the original ones. Maybe you don't have but if you need assistance trace the crossover. I wouldn't buy a NOS DX25TG09 because they will be probably more than 10 years old, and the new DX25TG59 is the almost drop in replacement of the old DX25TG09.
Ralf
FF from 10 yo is ok imho. It is of much more quality than last century. You could stand by 30 years nowadays without issues.
Anyway taming 1 dB is easy witj a L pad and migth not alter the rest of the filter perhaps...
My 2 cents.
Time to ask what the nearest tweeter in spite of their oem. Just say you can affoard their price and you wiml see the support quality of Sonus Faber looks like their loudspeaker...
Juts buy into a known brick&Mortar reliable shop and not an 100% Ebay/Ali..
Anyway taming 1 dB is easy witj a L pad and migth not alter the rest of the filter perhaps...
My 2 cents.
Time to ask what the nearest tweeter in spite of their oem. Just say you can affoard their price and you wiml see the support quality of Sonus Faber looks like their loudspeaker...
Juts buy into a known brick&Mortar reliable shop and not an 100% Ebay/Ali..
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Thanks again to all that have chimed in.
It seems that valid arguments can be made for either tweeter that I am considering, there are not any day and night differences between them in terms of specifications. The biggest difference is in the prices where the Scanspeak is about twice that of the Vifa, but still a quite reasonable $60.
Judging by the frequency response graphs of both units, they appear to to be very closely matched but the Vifa appears to be a little smoother in the 3-kHz region. Both have a peak in the kHz region but the Vifa is broader.
Both tweeters seem to be well established drivers and equally well regarded, it would be hard to go wrong with either me thinks.
I think the logical thing to do would be to get one of each and measure them, as well as the original which would serve as a reference.
It seems that valid arguments can be made for either tweeter that I am considering, there are not any day and night differences between them in terms of specifications. The biggest difference is in the prices where the Scanspeak is about twice that of the Vifa, but still a quite reasonable $60.
Judging by the frequency response graphs of both units, they appear to to be very closely matched but the Vifa appears to be a little smoother in the 3-kHz region. Both have a peak in the kHz region but the Vifa is broader.
Both tweeters seem to be well established drivers and equally well regarded, it would be hard to go wrong with either me thinks.
I think the logical thing to do would be to get one of each and measure them, as well as the original which would serve as a reference.
Attachments
They appear identical - the only reason to get the Scanspeak is if you think you might get better manufacturing consistency (hence matching) between 2 samples.
Then again, if the Vifas are half the cost, you could get 4 of them, measure them, and keep the two that are closest matched 🤣
Then again, if the Vifas are half the cost, you could get 4 of them, measure them, and keep the two that are closest matched 🤣