I used to DIY loduspeakers but that was when I was single, had no real work, and no other family or socitieal obligations.
So when I need a new pair of speakers I started looking at good brands. Everything from Focal 836, Paradigms Studio 100 and Monitor Audio RX8 for the living room and Sonus Faber's Liuto, Tannoy's Definition 8T, Spendor A9, Monitor Audio's GX300, KEF's R900 and smaller (direct to customer) brands like Salk's Veracity for the bedroom. I even considered designs from Troels, Zaph and Tony Gee. I figured a good design would only involve me building and that means only 20% of the work.
Then I stumbled into Selah Audio. More specifically the Selah Peridot, S6, and RC4. How do Selah's designs compare to the brands mentioned above?
I have 2 rooms and was thinking of Selah kits for both rooms.
The Living-dining room where we entertain. About 550 sq. ft. or about 5000 cu. ft. The system here needs to fun, capable of going loud, but does not need to be the last word in accuracy. I will also need a matching center and rear speakers. So for the rears I figured Selah's S6 would work. For the subwoofer I was looking at Rhythmik's DS1500 CI kit since it is floor facing.
Front: Peridot
Center: I dont know....something that is low profile (about 8" tall x 28" wide) but visually and sonically matches the Peridot
Rear: S6
The Bedroom is where we listen to music. It is about 270 sq. ft or about 2500 cu. ft. We occasionally watch movies. For the Subwoofer a Rhythmik DS1200 CI will have to do as space is limited.
Front: RC4 (without subwoofer)
Phantom center (due to space limitations).
Rear: S6.
So when I need a new pair of speakers I started looking at good brands. Everything from Focal 836, Paradigms Studio 100 and Monitor Audio RX8 for the living room and Sonus Faber's Liuto, Tannoy's Definition 8T, Spendor A9, Monitor Audio's GX300, KEF's R900 and smaller (direct to customer) brands like Salk's Veracity for the bedroom. I even considered designs from Troels, Zaph and Tony Gee. I figured a good design would only involve me building and that means only 20% of the work.
Then I stumbled into Selah Audio. More specifically the Selah Peridot, S6, and RC4. How do Selah's designs compare to the brands mentioned above?
I have 2 rooms and was thinking of Selah kits for both rooms.
The Living-dining room where we entertain. About 550 sq. ft. or about 5000 cu. ft. The system here needs to fun, capable of going loud, but does not need to be the last word in accuracy. I will also need a matching center and rear speakers. So for the rears I figured Selah's S6 would work. For the subwoofer I was looking at Rhythmik's DS1500 CI kit since it is floor facing.
Front: Peridot
Center: I dont know....something that is low profile (about 8" tall x 28" wide) but visually and sonically matches the Peridot
Rear: S6
The Bedroom is where we listen to music. It is about 270 sq. ft or about 2500 cu. ft. We occasionally watch movies. For the Subwoofer a Rhythmik DS1200 CI will have to do as space is limited.
Front: RC4 (without subwoofer)
Phantom center (due to space limitations).
Rear: S6.
I would take Jim Salk's or Selah's stuff over the other 3, personally. I've also met both of them in person.
I've heard the Veracity, Archos, Soundscape 10's, and SongTowers from Jim. All were very well balanced and classy finished. The SS10 came out about 2 years ago, I heard the ST the year before that, the Archos (MDT33 version) in 08, and the Veracity I heard as he was starting out back in 2003- it's a great little speaker! Jim utilizes Dennis Murphy and Jeff Bagby at times for xover or alignment work, and they always come out very nice. The Archos is likely the best speaker I've ever heard, or at least very close tothe top of my personal wow list. Jim hails from Detroit.
Rick Craig does Selah, based in North Carolina, and does a great job on voicing his creations for greatness. He used to provide a xover service, but I'm not sure he does that anymore. I've heard several speakers he's designed that are not on his products pages, and I feel that any of his would also be top-notch.
Later,
Wolf
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I think you are bias because you know the designers personally and heard the speakers they designed. I don't any reasons to doubt the designs from Zaph, Troel and Tony all of them are doing this kind of work for many years. I think they are equally competent.
The difficult is to decide on the DESIGN(and also budget) hence the kind of sound or vice-versa you demand from these speakers. The problem is so many choices and so little time!
The difficult is to decide on the DESIGN(and also budget) hence the kind of sound or vice-versa you demand from these speakers. The problem is so many choices and so little time!
1- I don't much care for Zaph's voicing. They are all 'overly neutral' to me, or murky in the mids. That's my opinion, and I've heard about 6 pair of his.
2- I've heard that Troels has issues with the TL's he makes in that they are not optimal when you consult the math from Martin. Other than that I have not even heard one of his designs over here in the USA.
3- Tony Gee is a bit of an eccentric, IMO. His designs use a lot of expensive parts, and are out of reach for most DIYers. I haven't heard his either.
As to the supposed bias, Jeff has been doing this for 30+ years. Rick for at least 20 years, and Dennis for 20 likely as well. Jim has his bases covered.
Yes I know them, but I'm basing it on the sound I heard, not the designers.
Later,
Wolf
2- I've heard that Troels has issues with the TL's he makes in that they are not optimal when you consult the math from Martin. Other than that I have not even heard one of his designs over here in the USA.
3- Tony Gee is a bit of an eccentric, IMO. His designs use a lot of expensive parts, and are out of reach for most DIYers. I haven't heard his either.
As to the supposed bias, Jeff has been doing this for 30+ years. Rick for at least 20 years, and Dennis for 20 likely as well. Jim has his bases covered.
Yes I know them, but I'm basing it on the sound I heard, not the designers.
Later,
Wolf
Thanks everyone.
I did email Jim Salk around December when we started civil work on our apartment. Since then some of the specs have changed and some others have become more final (size and location of speakers for example have been finalised) and my son got 2 pair of JBL 4312E for his system (he already had a JBL sub) so now it is just the living room and our bedroom that needs to be considered.
The Front Towers would have to be less than 11" wide, 17" deep, and 45" tall. My wife finds anything larger visually imposing.
What it seems like is the ideal speaker would be Jim Salk's SoundScape 8, Troel's/Anders Mark Mark 21, Lautsprecher's la Belle, and Selah's RC4 (sans subwoofer).
these unfortunately are not available
Strassacker: Speaker - kits - do it yourself
although I did wonder if the same could be built using SEAS's Excel Coaxial and a pair of Excel W22EX woofers but that would mean too much engineering for me. Besides I was told the Excel Coax is nto an easy speaker to work with...well if wishes were horses...
Coming back to the intial list above...
When I emailed Jim Salk he was clear that he does not ship speaker without the cabinets. This increases the cost of his speakers because I have to pay shipping, handling, duties and taxes on the entire cabinet (unfinished).
That leaves the Troels, Selah and Lautsprecher options. Of these I am leaning towards Selah's subwoofer-less RC4 and hence the following combination. Does this look ok?
For the Living room HT system:
Front: Peridot
Center: Sardonyx
Rear: a shallow S6 - does it make sense to use 2 Fountek tweeters like Martin Logan below. I like the sleek flush look this design offers.
MartinLogan ElectroMotion® Series, Premium full-sized electrostatic based home theater speakers
For the Bedroom
Front: RC4 (phantom center)
Rear: a shallow S6 (possibly with dual Fountek tweeters).
Note that the kits have no cabinets.. All that gorgeous wood-working is going to cost. This needs to be factored in with other offerings, retail/wholesale or other kit's that might include cabinets.
As for DIY sources - any good DIY design with excellent documentation ends-up being no more than the drivers, crossover parts/wiring/posts, and shipping/tax.. (with of course the added expense for cabinets again.)
I'd recommend figuring-out *exactly* what you want to achieve, but also what you are willing to "give up".
For instance, none of Selah's (except for the line arrays) are terribly efficient - which may or may not be important to you. Like-wise, if you are considering a subwoofer or subwoofers (a'la Geddes), then perhaps consider "monitors" only.
..and as mentioned by others, talk to Rick and see what he can point you to for a better overall solution. He should be able to give you a good idea of performance within his own designs.
There are of course *other* designs available as well, technically speaking you would have a difficult time bettering JohnK's Nao Note, though again - it may not be the sort of design you are interested in, or the limitations it might pose with respect to amplification/use.
As for commercial designs.. one that seems to offer good value for the money is the Vapor Exquisite Audio Breeze, needs subs - but even most "fullrange" designs should have subs IMO.
As for DIY sources - any good DIY design with excellent documentation ends-up being no more than the drivers, crossover parts/wiring/posts, and shipping/tax.. (with of course the added expense for cabinets again.)
I'd recommend figuring-out *exactly* what you want to achieve, but also what you are willing to "give up".
For instance, none of Selah's (except for the line arrays) are terribly efficient - which may or may not be important to you. Like-wise, if you are considering a subwoofer or subwoofers (a'la Geddes), then perhaps consider "monitors" only.
..and as mentioned by others, talk to Rick and see what he can point you to for a better overall solution. He should be able to give you a good idea of performance within his own designs.
There are of course *other* designs available as well, technically speaking you would have a difficult time bettering JohnK's Nao Note, though again - it may not be the sort of design you are interested in, or the limitations it might pose with respect to amplification/use.
As for commercial designs.. one that seems to offer good value for the money is the Vapor Exquisite Audio Breeze, needs subs - but even most "fullrange" designs should have subs IMO.
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Cabinets are not much of an issue. We have some real good carpeneters and great veneer and laquer coating available here (in India).
I agree that I should let Rick Craig know what I want to achieve. For example I would love to get 2-3 db more sensitivity (90db would be a nice target) and this may be possible if he could perhaps replace the E0015/W15CY001 with the E0049/W16NX001 but I assume using the Fountek ribbon tweeter nessiciates using a small mid as the crossover must be in the 2.5-3.5k range. This might mean he would have to use the Fountek CD2.0 instead of the CD3.0. Again I digress!
Also given that in both the Peridot and RC4, the LF section and the Mid-HF sections will have seperate amplifiers I could bi-amp if I had the appropriate electronic crossover. This might further improve sensitvity and damping.
In my view, a good DIY design actually is more than just the sum of just it's parts (prices taken from madisound.com).... choice of components and design for example.
Selah Peridot:
4 8" woofers: $100 each - $400
2 5" woofers: $150 each - $300
2 Fountek tweeters: $100 each - $200
Crossovers/wiring/binding posts : $200/pr (approx)
-------------------
Total of parts $1100 - Selah's kit lists for $1500 per apir
Selah S6:
2 5" woofers: $150 each - $300
2 Fountek tweeters: $100 each - $200
Crossovers/wiring/binding posts : $100/pr
------------------
Total of parts $600 - Selah's kit lists for $875 per pair
Selah RC4:
4 8" woofers: $250 each - $1000
2 5" woofers: $150 each - $300
2 Fountek tweeters: $100 each - $200
Crossovers/wiring/binding posts : $200/pr
-------------------
Total of parts $1700 - Selah's kit lists for $3000 per pair (but this includes an active subwoofer).
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I definitely agree, but that pretty much encompasses "good" (..for me at least).
This does raise a specific issue IMO on what is "good" though (or perhaps "better than good"): the selection of crossover parts (for a passive design).
Note (..I also think that on a parts-cost basis Selah Audio kits are good value).
The only thing that tends to concern me on kits in general are passive crossover parts selection. I prefer to see a passive crossover that is typically equal-to or more expensive than the drivers. In fact looking at a grouping of "good" designs for something "better" - this is often a pretty big factor.
Scott,
Many years ago (early 90s) I was visiting a rather well known speaker designer. In his lab I saw a rather simple 6" 2 way speaker half finished. I was surprised that there was a electrolytic cap in the tweeter circuit so obviously I asked. He said the cap's sonics were part of the design and when he removed the electrotytic and replaced it with a "esoteric" cap of the same value the speaker did loose it's "danceability". After that experience I dont question methods of people who know far more than I do. There is a method in their madness. In the end it is the music that matters.
This designer has designed speakers using everything from simple Elac tweeters to ones using ScanSpeak, B&G, and RAAL. In fact it was in his shop (on a later occasion) that I first heard the B&G Neo 8 and Neo 3 as well as the first RAAL.
I have not heard this speaker (then again I have not heard any of Zaphs's, Troels's Salk's or Selah's designs) but it's WAF is low.
But shouldn't you question it? It is ultimately part of the design.
Perhaps a better way to explain it is: are you certain the the designer in question is far more experienced in this admittedly esoteric area of the design? (..just a good flat-on-axis response seems to be de rigueur of most designers, some paying more attention to a broader polar response, but few to the variety of possibilities with crossover parts.)
For instance it's only been within the past 4-5 years or so that Troels has really experimented with this area. If you read his comments *really* closely his previous view-point was largely that it didn't matter. However as he progressed further, with a greater variety of associated equipment - equipment he felt was better (in various ways), he now clearly believes that it can make a substantial difference. (..again though, all depending on the quality of associated equipment.)
Of course none of this is to say that a loudspeaker's crossover should be more expensive, but rather has the designer tried a significant variety of parts substitution with a significant variety of associated equipment? Also, were the parts "burned-in" when doing so?
Again though, just something to think about.
Maybe you have a point. I was only refering to the speaker designs that guys Salk, Craig, Murphy, Richie, Bagby, Zaph, Troels and Tony Gee produce today.
What I was tying to say that sometimes (if not often) the designer knows the limitation of a crossover component. I agree that usually the compromise is made because the designer has to meet a price point. But many designers work around these limitations - they design speakers becuase they love to. Speaker design does not pay like Banking, Technology, etc.. do those in it are usually there because their passion for this hobby/art drives them.
Finally, it is the music that matters. I dont worry if the speaker is neutral or coloured so much. I like a speaker if it can get me to dance, get my toes to tap and involve me in the performance.
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