So for awhile now I've been upgrading what I could on a show string budget. I built the Elsinores awhile back, and I was able to pick up a very nice Proceed HPA amp by Mark Levinson this year. All and all I'm VERY happy with what I have right now. But I cannot help thinking my weak link is my B&K Ref 30 Pre/Amp processor. Which has an audiophile DAC that does a nice job with PCM stereo. It has some features I really like for example it has an option to run just my stereo pair and cut out the subwoofer for a true full range experience and allows the speakers to handle the bass, which is nice if it's late at night and my kids are sleeping. But this B&K is old and I can't help thinking a LOT of modern DAC's would be an improvement.
I have been considering upgrading to a newer Pre/Pro but to be honest the only reason I want to upgrade is for my music (or if the thing dies), I'm happy with it other wise. I do watching movies with the 5.1 Dolby Digital, but that's good enough.
Most recently I've been looking into streaming music and a couple months back I started using Tidal. I just started using my Vizo TV to stream and I have my TV hooked up via a Toslink to the B&K. Again, I'm VERY impressed with how good it sounds.
However, like I said, I can't help thinking I would benefit largely by upgrading to a newer DAC which I can still passthrough my B&K with an RCA connection, (it does not have XLR,) but if I do that I would not be able to stream from the TV, which I'm not married too anyway.
So here's the questions I have are related to the following:
First off, I'd have to Stream from my phone unless I added a Tidal player as well, and because I'm old school I'm just not sure about the quality of sending a signal to a Bluetooth DAC. Connecting the DAC via a Toslink ,Coax, or USB will always be superior IMO.
So I guess getting down to brass tacks, Am I corrected I'd rather connect a player with a cord or is Bluetooth just as good?
If I'm correct, which player/DAC combo say under $1000 would still be audiophile quality, especially if I can find it used, can you suggest?
And if I'm wrong about Bluetooth not being as good as the cord, same question, which audiophile quality DAC under $1000 should I be looking at? Any and all input about MQA DAC's I'd like to hear too, including any links to reviews and articles that would help me out.
Thanks in advance!!!!!
I have been considering upgrading to a newer Pre/Pro but to be honest the only reason I want to upgrade is for my music (or if the thing dies), I'm happy with it other wise. I do watching movies with the 5.1 Dolby Digital, but that's good enough.
Most recently I've been looking into streaming music and a couple months back I started using Tidal. I just started using my Vizo TV to stream and I have my TV hooked up via a Toslink to the B&K. Again, I'm VERY impressed with how good it sounds.
However, like I said, I can't help thinking I would benefit largely by upgrading to a newer DAC which I can still passthrough my B&K with an RCA connection, (it does not have XLR,) but if I do that I would not be able to stream from the TV, which I'm not married too anyway.
So here's the questions I have are related to the following:
First off, I'd have to Stream from my phone unless I added a Tidal player as well, and because I'm old school I'm just not sure about the quality of sending a signal to a Bluetooth DAC. Connecting the DAC via a Toslink ,Coax, or USB will always be superior IMO.
So I guess getting down to brass tacks, Am I corrected I'd rather connect a player with a cord or is Bluetooth just as good?
If I'm correct, which player/DAC combo say under $1000 would still be audiophile quality, especially if I can find it used, can you suggest?
And if I'm wrong about Bluetooth not being as good as the cord, same question, which audiophile quality DAC under $1000 should I be looking at? Any and all input about MQA DAC's I'd like to hear too, including any links to reviews and articles that would help me out.
Thanks in advance!!!!!
If you're interested in learning about MQA there's a very long thread on Audiophile Style where you could start - but be warned, there is a lot of noise there too.
MQA is a proprietary anti-consumer scam
MQA is a proprietary anti-consumer scam
Thanks I'll check that out. As soon as I see "proprietary" my eyebrows raise. I have a LOT of experience with people claiming "proprietary" and its in my experience, its what this title suggests, "anti-consumer". So I'll check it out, but "always" is an absolute...so maybe I'm wrong?
I don't claim to have understood all the technical claims for MQA. I do though find their marketing highly disingenuous which is sufficient to put me off it for life.
Take a look here. There is a part 2 video as well. I published music on Tidal to test MQA - MQA Review - YouTube
You have asked about MQA in a title and received an answer. However there is more questions in your post. First things you need to address is streaming. Tidal is not only one service provider offering a limited losseless options. It draws you to MQA, but there are others like recently introduced Apple loseless (I would recommend from a SQ point of view), and Spotify coming (hopefully in my region soon).
After deciding on a service provider you need to chose streaming method. Bluetooth is obviously not acceptable. I think you should go with network streamer. On the start it could be inexpensive hardware based on Raspberry PI. Apple is bad on this regard, it would tie you to the Apple proprietary solutions and at the moment there is a lot of inconsistency amoung their own hardware. It can rule Apple out on the beginning. Spottify should be your next candidate, if you are in US.
Network streamer would have the most universal use, it allows to attach any DAC you chose without restrictions. To make it working, streamer must work as an end-point to your streaming application. This is a place for a further investigation, perhaps an investment in a software is required.
After deciding on a service provider you need to chose streaming method. Bluetooth is obviously not acceptable. I think you should go with network streamer. On the start it could be inexpensive hardware based on Raspberry PI. Apple is bad on this regard, it would tie you to the Apple proprietary solutions and at the moment there is a lot of inconsistency amoung their own hardware. It can rule Apple out on the beginning. Spottify should be your next candidate, if you are in US.
Network streamer would have the most universal use, it allows to attach any DAC you chose without restrictions. To make it working, streamer must work as an end-point to your streaming application. This is a place for a further investigation, perhaps an investment in a software is required.
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Clausen:
I'm no expert, but I'd suggest building a simple Daphile-based streamer and buy a stand-alone DAC. Daphile supports Tidal. You could assemble a nice streamer for $300-350. If your budget is $1,000, you'd have more than enough left over for the DAC. I'm partial to the Schiit Bifrost and Modi DACs, but there are plenty of other options available in your price range.
Regards,
Scott
I'm no expert, but I'd suggest building a simple Daphile-based streamer and buy a stand-alone DAC. Daphile supports Tidal. You could assemble a nice streamer for $300-350. If your budget is $1,000, you'd have more than enough left over for the DAC. I'm partial to the Schiit Bifrost and Modi DACs, but there are plenty of other options available in your price range.
Regards,
Scott
Scott,
I thought about doing a Daphile system, I actually have the parts with the exception of a few pieces to build a standalone PC, (from a PC upgrade with parts I never got around to selling) and could connect it to my TV for a display even, which would be really nice. The problem is I don't have much room. The MoBo I have is a full ATX so the PC cases are limited.
I've looked at the Schiit stuff, I almost bought one of there headphone amps. I did buy a Monoprice headphone amp, which I sent back because I could not tell the difference in the built in Denon headphone amp in the system i was using that with, and it's hard to listen to headphones after listening to the Elsinores.
I'll go read some more on the Daphile thread, maybe I will go that route. Nobody has answered this question though, is adding a new DAC going to be an improvement over my B&K DAC???!!!!
I thought about doing a Daphile system, I actually have the parts with the exception of a few pieces to build a standalone PC, (from a PC upgrade with parts I never got around to selling) and could connect it to my TV for a display even, which would be really nice. The problem is I don't have much room. The MoBo I have is a full ATX so the PC cases are limited.
I've looked at the Schiit stuff, I almost bought one of there headphone amps. I did buy a Monoprice headphone amp, which I sent back because I could not tell the difference in the built in Denon headphone amp in the system i was using that with, and it's hard to listen to headphones after listening to the Elsinores.
I'll go read some more on the Daphile thread, maybe I will go that route. Nobody has answered this question though, is adding a new DAC going to be an improvement over my B&K DAC???!!!!
>Nobody has answered this question though, is adding a new DAC going to be an improvement over my B&K DAC???!!!!
Depends on the DAC. The sky's the limit, as you probably know - both in the high end finished product space and the DIY. I imagine you'd need to get into the clock jitter arena, where certain components have proved better than others, which provide clock signals to various parts of the DAC circuit.
Depends on the DAC. The sky's the limit, as you probably know - both in the high end finished product space and the DIY. I imagine you'd need to get into the clock jitter arena, where certain components have proved better than others, which provide clock signals to various parts of the DAC circuit.
Clausen:
Probably. My $250 Modi (one generation removed from Schiit's current version) is probably as good and maybe better than my $650 Bifrost (three generations removed from Schiit's current version). If my Bifrost blew up today, it's replacement would almost certainly be another Bifrost. I've had similar experiences when comparing new DACs against older DACs. It's certainly possible that your B&K DAC smokes everything in your price range, but I doubt it.
By the way, you might consider building a server using a mini-ITX motherboard. I found very nice small chassis options at perfecthometheater.com (e.g., Ultra low profile HTPC chassis.), but you could probably find something even smaller.
Regards,
Scott
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If you decide to buy, then think hard about buying a pre owned DAC rather than a new one. If at some later time you decide you love everything about MQA: you've got it already. On the other hand, if you later decide MQA is pure crystalline evil, you haven't paid any manufacturers one penny for MQA hardware, and you haven't increased MQA new-unit sales at all.
Same idea works pretty well with books too.
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Same idea works pretty well with books too.
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MQA and "core assets"
The MQA paper for the Audio Engineering Society contains some interesting clues:
"In earlier times it was not always feasible to record with
higher quality than the release format. These days the
cost of preserving digital data continues to fall and so the
form and sound quality of the archive deserve serious
consideration. We need a variety of application-specific
distribution formats, but if we are doing the best for the
future, we should always store the best representation and
it will rarely make sense to distribute these core assets in
a format identical to that of the archive."
(Audio Engineering Society Convention Paper 9178 by J. Robert Stuart and Peter G. Craven, 1. CONTEXT)
Now it´s obvious that the marketing specialists at big record companies will like the
"... we should always store the best representation and it will rarely make sense to distribute these core assets ..." part:
Keep the original master and deliver a lossy encoded (MQA _is_ a lossy codec) version to the public, tell them it´s the best they can get (put a sticker "Master Quality Authenticated" on it) and after some years sell it with MQA 2.0 or whatever it will be called again. At the same time control the distribution chain with a propritary codec where you can implement DRM at any time.
I personally avoid to buy any hardware that supports MQA, not a single cent of my money is going into this fraud.
The MQA paper for the Audio Engineering Society contains some interesting clues:
"In earlier times it was not always feasible to record with
higher quality than the release format. These days the
cost of preserving digital data continues to fall and so the
form and sound quality of the archive deserve serious
consideration. We need a variety of application-specific
distribution formats, but if we are doing the best for the
future, we should always store the best representation and
it will rarely make sense to distribute these core assets in
a format identical to that of the archive."
(Audio Engineering Society Convention Paper 9178 by J. Robert Stuart and Peter G. Craven, 1. CONTEXT)
Now it´s obvious that the marketing specialists at big record companies will like the
"... we should always store the best representation and it will rarely make sense to distribute these core assets ..." part:
Keep the original master and deliver a lossy encoded (MQA _is_ a lossy codec) version to the public, tell them it´s the best they can get (put a sticker "Master Quality Authenticated" on it) and after some years sell it with MQA 2.0 or whatever it will be called again. At the same time control the distribution chain with a propritary codec where you can implement DRM at any time.
I personally avoid to buy any hardware that supports MQA, not a single cent of my money is going into this fraud.
My $0.02
Purchase an inexpensive modern DAC and see!
There are a few quite good ones in the $200.00 range. I'm partial to Topping and have both the D30 and D50s. Add a Raspberry Pi. Those two DACs accept USB so a laptop or Raspberry Pi can connect that way. Later you can invest in a good SPDIF card if you like. I use these with my V-Fet ACP+
Purchase an inexpensive modern DAC and see!
There are a few quite good ones in the $200.00 range. I'm partial to Topping and have both the D30 and D50s. Add a Raspberry Pi. Those two DACs accept USB so a laptop or Raspberry Pi can connect that way. Later you can invest in a good SPDIF card if you like. I use these with my V-Fet ACP+
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So I'm going to scratch the idea of worrying about a MQA DAC.
As I mentioned, I have everything to build a dedicated PC server with the exception of a 2 or 3 parts. I think I have room if I rearrange a little for a PC Tower case, which I have, that I'm not using. In fact that MoBo has an m2 hard drive slot. (I'm using that hard drive in the new PC so I'd need to get another SSD for that.)
I also like the idea that I can use the TV as a monitor.
Thanks for everyone's input so far!
As I mentioned, I have everything to build a dedicated PC server with the exception of a 2 or 3 parts. I think I have room if I rearrange a little for a PC Tower case, which I have, that I'm not using. In fact that MoBo has an m2 hard drive slot. (I'm using that hard drive in the new PC so I'd need to get another SSD for that.)
I also like the idea that I can use the TV as a monitor.
Thanks for everyone's input so far!
You may want to check out stuff like Roon or Plex, or something built on squeezebox. I use Roon and am very happy with it. I use Raspberry Pi’s as endpoints. BTW Roon has MQA decoding built in.
Just an idea as you are building a PC.
Also audio science reviews.com does a decent technical review of DACs. Not my favorite place for discussion but they do a nice job of measuring.
Just an idea as you are building a PC.
Also audio science reviews.com does a decent technical review of DACs. Not my favorite place for discussion but they do a nice job of measuring.
I just watched a video by Darko on Rasberry PI, never even heard of it before, that's looking VERY interesting. Since I don't have very much room, that might be a way better option for me.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: in theory you could buy a DAC that supports MQA and just do not use MQA content, but you would still pay money to that racket, via the transferred licensing costs for the technology. Hence, no.
Long answer: in theory you could buy a DAC that supports MQA and just do not use MQA content, but you would still pay money to that racket, via the transferred licensing costs for the technology. Hence, no.
I think it would be wise to hear from people who are pro MQA. Look at the reviews in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. They do a good job of explaining the technology and they really like the sound. I don't own one myself, but I think hearing both sides of argument is always a good thing.
Nomex suite on.
Nomex suite on.