All Spice models of MJE182 from OnSemi site, shows its parameter "Saturation Current" IS = 1e-17. It seems to be very small for a transistor with Ic=3A. When i place this value in the corresponding box of EDSpice Simulator parameter table, is translated in 0.01 femto Amperes. For example, a similar NPN transistor like BD137 with Ic=1.5A has IS = 48.15 femto Amperes and the complementary PNP MJE172 has IS = 53.76 femto Amperes.
Can you help me please?
Fotios
Can you help me please?
Fotios
Last edited:
Off topic question
Sorry for this off topic question. I have posted it in other threads but i haven't received any reply. It is about the "Saturation Current" simulation parameter of MJE182. In the spice model of OnSemi, it is given as IS = 1e-17 which is translated in 0.01 femto Amperes. It seems to be very small for a transistor with Ic=3A. Can you enlighten me please if it is correct or wrong this value of MJE182 IS?
Thanks for any help
Fotios
Sorry for this off topic question. I have posted it in other threads but i haven't received any reply. It is about the "Saturation Current" simulation parameter of MJE182. In the spice model of OnSemi, it is given as IS = 1e-17 which is translated in 0.01 femto Amperes. It seems to be very small for a transistor with Ic=3A. Can you enlighten me please if it is correct or wrong this value of MJE182 IS?
Thanks for any help
Fotios
Hi Fotios,
I have commented in the thread on the JE-990 that there seem to be serious issues with that very model from OnSemi:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...je-990-op-amp-deane-jensen-2.html#post1290867
I noticed that also and I believe that it is an error - how could it be right?
"Is" is defined in the Ebers–Moll model section:
Bipolar junction transistor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Fairchild models for the MJE182/172 are better but also seem to be a bit odd.
What are you trying to model if you don't mind my asking?
I think that MultiSim includes a better model library and you might ask one of the members that uses it to post it here. I'd like a copy also if you happen to find them.
Hi Pete and thank you for the detailed reply. You are very kind.
I am looking to build my own discrete operational amplifier. I don't like to make clones or copies of circuits designed from other people. It is not ethical. Simply i use them as guides to start from something . Currently, i study two circuits. The one, is indeed the 990 of John Hardy. The other is the DOA-33 of Bryston. In both circuits the MJE172/182 are used in output. I did a copy of DOA-33 (because is simplest) for experimenting. For accommodation, i changed all small signal transistors in BC550/560 and the output transistors with D44/45H11 which i had in my stock. The final circuit, was very good although i used the original values of resistors and caps. I checked the circuit in non-inverting configuration with square waves as stimulus (it is my preferable method for estimation a circuit). With supply of +/-28Vdc and by injecting 10KHz square in input, i realized that the compensation cap across the feedback resistor, must be 100pF to eliminate the overshoot caused from the Miller pole. I got finally a nice square wave (across a resistor of 1,5k connected as load in output) with 0.6 μsec Rise Time which shows a very good bandwidth. I have two remarks about DOA-33: a) It is very sensitive in any ripple component remaining in supply rails. I suppose this happen because the DOA-33 does not include CCS like the 990 of J. Hardy. b) With supply less than +/-22Vdc its performance becomes like this of a simple IC.
Because i can't find any other model of MJE172/182 (neither in Fairchild as you told me) except those of OnSemi, i will replace them with MJD44/45H11 (in simulator) which have same ft = 50MHz.
Now, for simulation i use the EDSpice which is part of the Visionics EDWinXP CAD/CAE full package which i use from 1997. At this time i am running the version EDWinXP 1.6 on a workstation PC under WinXP x64. Under WinXP-32bit, the simulator presents hang-ups very often. I have installed the LTspice in my PC one year ago, but i had never time to study it in detail. So, i can't make a comparison between EDSpice and LTspice. In general, both offer similar possibilities as i have seen in the plots obtained from LTspice.
I looked in MultiSim (why you don't told me that it is of National Instruments?
😀 ) but i don't think that i have time to examine the one month demo version.BTW, i will ask the assistance of Visionics (i have this right as registered user - no
- of EDWinXP) for MJE172/182 models. In any case, i will inform you.Again, many - many thanks for the help.
Fotios
Last edited:
Sorry, yes forgot that I tried the BD139/140, those did not
work well either from OnSemi and the Fairchild parts worked
but also seemed not quite right. I said MJE182 from Fairchild
by mistake, when I was thinking of the BD parts.
Are these the models that you used? These are what I had
from Onsemi in 2007 and I could not find these models from
any other source:
.MODEL MJE172 pnp
+IS=5.37678e-14 BF=144.999 NF=1.31124 VAF=37.7636
+IKF=0.3377 ISE=3.90593e-13 NE=1.94164 BR=2.16743
+NR=1.5 VAR=341.991 IKR=1.01149 ISC=3.90593e-13
+NC=2.99994 RB=0.143784 IRB=0.1 RBM=0.143784
+RE=0.000974472 RC=0.479448 XTB=0.965901 XTI=1.10736
+EG=1.206 CJE=1.19394e-10 VJE=0.418187 MJE=0.353257
+TF=9.42564e-10 XTF=0.98021 VTF=9.92389 ITF=0.0101545
+CJC=8.86819e-11 VJC=0.4 MJC=0.380776 XCJC=0.8
+FC=0.527944 CJS=0 VJS=0.75 MJS=0.5
+TR=1.15732e-06 PTF=0 KF=0 AF=1 Vceo=80 Icrating=3A mfg=OnSemi
* Model generated on Feb 21, 2004
* Model format: PSpice
.MODEL MJE182 npn
+IS=1e-17 BF=198.35 NF=1.0206 VAF=12.4376
+IKF=1.11965 ISE=7.21502e-12 NE=3.15832 BR=4.34273
+NR=1.1475 VAR=2.3972 IKR=10 ISC=3.89992e-13
+NC=3.99001 RB=0.1 IRB=0.1 RBM=0.1
+RE=0.0001 RC=0.49763 XTB=0.1 XTI=1.08146
+EG=1.206 CJE=1.20187e-10 VJE=0.813111 MJE=0.386263
+TF=9.98546e-10 XTF=0.998055 VTF=9.87785 ITF=0.00987268
+CJC=2.86035e-11 VJC=0.4 MJC=0.246763 XCJC=0.8
+FC=0.537414 CJS=0 VJS=0.75 MJS=0.5
+TR=6.20767e-07 PTF=0 KF=0 AF=1 Vceo=80 Icrating=3A mfg=OnSemi
* Model generated on Feb 21, 2004
* Model format: PSpice
work well either from OnSemi and the Fairchild parts worked
but also seemed not quite right. I said MJE182 from Fairchild
by mistake, when I was thinking of the BD parts.
Are these the models that you used? These are what I had
from Onsemi in 2007 and I could not find these models from
any other source:
.MODEL MJE172 pnp
+IS=5.37678e-14 BF=144.999 NF=1.31124 VAF=37.7636
+IKF=0.3377 ISE=3.90593e-13 NE=1.94164 BR=2.16743
+NR=1.5 VAR=341.991 IKR=1.01149 ISC=3.90593e-13
+NC=2.99994 RB=0.143784 IRB=0.1 RBM=0.143784
+RE=0.000974472 RC=0.479448 XTB=0.965901 XTI=1.10736
+EG=1.206 CJE=1.19394e-10 VJE=0.418187 MJE=0.353257
+TF=9.42564e-10 XTF=0.98021 VTF=9.92389 ITF=0.0101545
+CJC=8.86819e-11 VJC=0.4 MJC=0.380776 XCJC=0.8
+FC=0.527944 CJS=0 VJS=0.75 MJS=0.5
+TR=1.15732e-06 PTF=0 KF=0 AF=1 Vceo=80 Icrating=3A mfg=OnSemi
* Model generated on Feb 21, 2004
* Model format: PSpice
.MODEL MJE182 npn
+IS=1e-17 BF=198.35 NF=1.0206 VAF=12.4376
+IKF=1.11965 ISE=7.21502e-12 NE=3.15832 BR=4.34273
+NR=1.1475 VAR=2.3972 IKR=10 ISC=3.89992e-13
+NC=3.99001 RB=0.1 IRB=0.1 RBM=0.1
+RE=0.0001 RC=0.49763 XTB=0.1 XTI=1.08146
+EG=1.206 CJE=1.20187e-10 VJE=0.813111 MJE=0.386263
+TF=9.98546e-10 XTF=0.998055 VTF=9.87785 ITF=0.00987268
+CJC=2.86035e-11 VJC=0.4 MJC=0.246763 XCJC=0.8
+FC=0.537414 CJS=0 VJS=0.75 MJS=0.5
+TR=6.20767e-07 PTF=0 KF=0 AF=1 Vceo=80 Icrating=3A mfg=OnSemi
* Model generated on Feb 21, 2004
* Model format: PSpice
Hi Pet
I ask your forgiveness for my delayed reply. I had a lot of problems to solve the last days.
I am very glad to meet you.What is your birth place? Greece or US?
My birth place is the city of DRAMA in north Greece, where i live the last 20 years. I have seen your profile in linkedin; I have like you, diploma of Electrical Engineer from KATE of Thessaloniki (similar to BSEE) and Electronic Engineer from EUCLID of Thessaloniki (BSc degree as well).
I have an old friend (we have grow up in the same neighborhood) which live in N.Y. city like you, he is mechanical engineer (university of Patras GR and Purdue universty of US) and is working mainly in environmental service companies. He is registered as well in linkedin. If you wish, contact with me privately in eal@dra.forthnet.gr to give you his name. I wish as well to come in contact with him, but i must pay 25 USD in linkedin.
Pet (from Peter? then Πετρο) i wish you happy Easter and Kali Anastasi, without troubles of any nature. I will not forget to drink a tsipouro in your health. My best wishes as well in your family.
Fotis
Last edited:
Hi again Pete
I hope you not misunderstand the typing error. I am so sorry... It was from my hurry, because i had to take my mother in doctor.
I ask again your forgivenes... You may know that i am not so good in English.
Greetings from Hellas
Fotis
Hi Fotios,
My grandparents on both sides came over when they were in their teens. So,
I am American/Greek. Please, your English is very good, I know almost no
Greek, I can understand a bit especially if there is some English mixed in. I
heard it often around my grandparents so it is familiar to me. I'm Panayotis
(sp?) in Greek the other translation of Peter.
I will email you for your offer thanks.
Yes, Happy Easter to you also and all the best for you and your family.
I'll have a drink also this Sunday!
My grandparents on both sides came over when they were in their teens. So,
I am American/Greek. Please, your English is very good, I know almost no
Greek, I can understand a bit especially if there is some English mixed in. I
heard it often around my grandparents so it is familiar to me. I'm Panayotis
(sp?) in Greek the other translation of Peter.
I will email you for your offer thanks.
Yes, Happy Easter to you also and all the best for you and your family.
I'll have a drink also this Sunday!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.