I haven't seen a (non aotomotive") design using a 2" to 3" full range in a two way with a 8" to 10" woofer. What is intrinsically wrong with the pairing?
At first glance it would seem to allow a lower crossover point into a larger woofer in two way not otherwise possible with a 1" dome.
At first glance it would seem to allow a lower crossover point into a larger woofer in two way not otherwise possible with a 1" dome.
Yes, and it might even be a little easier to do a crossover that low. The larger tweeter will likely narrow a bit, this is something which on the whole is probably a good thing. It will also go through a region of breakup.
It has been done quite a bit. Look for "WAW" and "FAST." Here's a long thread with a very good build using an 8" woofer and a variety of full range options. At the moment, I'm using this in a floor standing model with a Fostex FF85. It's really a great sounding speaker.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-162
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-162
I have had very good results from a 2" Bandor full range driver with a 10" Scanspeak sealed woofer, crossed (actively) at 600 Hz. (However I later realised that the combination was further improved by a Raal ribbon tweeter, crossing at 2.5 kHz, leaving the Bandor just covering 2 octaves in the midrange.)
There are quite a few around, using, for example, the Dayton RS225 with the Vifa TC9 or TC7 (see above), or the SB Acoustics SB20pfc with the TC9. There are some using Visaton drivers, including one from System 7 on here, I think. A TL design using the RS225 and a TC7 won its category at a noted US speaker design competition a few years ago,
This configuration allows a lower crossover point, and the high end response of the small driver might not matter that much if your hearing is limited - mine runs out at about 10,000 Hz. One possible issue is that the full range drivers are generally more 'directional' than domes, i.e. when you move away from the listening axis, the treble response reduces. Another is that a lower crossover point means forking out for larger and more costly woofer inductors.
Still, I'd like to try one.
Geoff
This configuration allows a lower crossover point, and the high end response of the small driver might not matter that much if your hearing is limited - mine runs out at about 10,000 Hz. One possible issue is that the full range drivers are generally more 'directional' than domes, i.e. when you move away from the listening axis, the treble response reduces. Another is that a lower crossover point means forking out for larger and more costly woofer inductors.
Still, I'd like to try one.
Geoff
I should maybe add to my previous post by saying that I totally agree with you that something like 2" plus a 10" is a really good idea. Crossing at perhaps 300 to 600 Hz, any discontinuity in directivity will be less severe than with a conventional tweeter/midwoofer combo.
(It might sound as if I've gone back on that by reintroducing a tweeter to my own speakers. But in fact the ribbons I'm using have a radiating area of 21 sq cm, while the Bandors have 26 sq cm, so the overall power response is not too dissimilar. It's nothing like the discontinuity you get going from, say, a 6" mid-woofer, which might have 150 sq cm, to a typical dome tweeter with perhaps 7 sq cm.)
I would say most so called FAST systems are what you are describing here with woofers starting at 6.5" or so.
The forum is full of these and even german DIY magazines are starting to explore these (though slower and not as thoroughly analyzed as here).
Pretty sure you have seen some of Dave´s examples (planet10) and his use of "midtweeters" as he calls them.
Or Linkwitz Lxmini is another famous example.
Despite all those examples here in the forums you can find some more ideas from said magazines:
Lautsprechershop Search
You can search for "fast" (Search the short description by keyword) or for example "Search used speaker chassis:" and type in FRS5 which is used quite a lot lately and fits some readily available waveguides (Visaton & Monacor).
B80, B100, Scanspeak 10F, Faital 3FExx, Fostex FF85 etc. are other examples of speakers that are being used.
Admittedly not many designs with fullrangers <= 2" size.
The forum is full of these and even german DIY magazines are starting to explore these (though slower and not as thoroughly analyzed as here).
Pretty sure you have seen some of Dave´s examples (planet10) and his use of "midtweeters" as he calls them.
Or Linkwitz Lxmini is another famous example.
Despite all those examples here in the forums you can find some more ideas from said magazines:
Lautsprechershop Search
You can search for "fast" (Search the short description by keyword) or for example "Search used speaker chassis:" and type in FRS5 which is used quite a lot lately and fits some readily available waveguides (Visaton & Monacor).
B80, B100, Scanspeak 10F, Faital 3FExx, Fostex FF85 etc. are other examples of speakers that are being used.
Admittedly not many designs with fullrangers <= 2" size.
This one looks really fun with a 2" Tymphany NE65 in a Fronthorn combined with a Tymphany XXL S12. Quint Store Under Download there is a summary with measurements
I have not found any 2” that perform as well as the best 3”.
WAW is not only a really valid approach, it has some sinificant sonic advantages over more typical 2-ways. Largely due to the XO being low enuff that the physical seperation can get to, or get way closer to, the significant quarter-wavelength distnce at the XO. That you are not using the typical midBass up into the regions where they have the mos issues. If one crosses low enuff you can get almost all the magic of. single FR driver with as much bass as you can “afford”. One disadvantage is that if you ar etrying for a passive XO instead of bi-amping, the XO parts can get big and pricey.
We have done a few (as have others), mostly as examples, the field, the design space, for WAWs is largely unexplored and with the growing number of really goofd FRs, even more possibilities are coming all the time.
You mention a 10“ woofer. Not completeed yet, but during my work on the A25-clone project, one of the intended boxes is the SEAS A26 sealed with a midTL for a small FR to make it into a WAW. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-a26-devore-style-build.369124/
dave
WAW is not only a really valid approach, it has some sinificant sonic advantages over more typical 2-ways. Largely due to the XO being low enuff that the physical seperation can get to, or get way closer to, the significant quarter-wavelength distnce at the XO. That you are not using the typical midBass up into the regions where they have the mos issues. If one crosses low enuff you can get almost all the magic of. single FR driver with as much bass as you can “afford”. One disadvantage is that if you ar etrying for a passive XO instead of bi-amping, the XO parts can get big and pricey.
We have done a few (as have others), mostly as examples, the field, the design space, for WAWs is largely unexplored and with the growing number of really goofd FRs, even more possibilities are coming all the time.
You mention a 10“ woofer. Not completeed yet, but during my work on the A25-clone project, one of the intended boxes is the SEAS A26 sealed with a midTL for a small FR to make it into a WAW. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-a26-devore-style-build.369124/
dave
Pano, in your experience does a 8" full ranger sound "bigger" in such a design vs a 3". I'm aware of the downside of the larger driver vs the smaller in terms if high frequency response, just curious if you've experienced any feeling of differences in the scale of the sound with the larger units?
Yes, bigger scale, more realistic. But then all the issues you mentioned. You either have to choose well, live with the limitations of the 8", or add a little tweeter. FWIW, I do like 8" plus 2x15". 6.5" is not a bad compromise for big sound vs good top end.
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The biggest benefits of those "FAST" systems (so a fullrange with some other woofer), is that one can filter around 150-400Hz.
Especially when used in an active system, this gives quite some nice benefits in terms of internal reflections/standing waves.
So this can be combined with like a subwoofer or something.
When purely used as a tweeter, I don't see many benefits, except maybe for the directivity.
Although that can also be sorted with a proper waveguide.
Tweeters just perform better in sense of distortion, power (because of the much higher sensitivity) and frequency response.
Especially when used in an active system, this gives quite some nice benefits in terms of internal reflections/standing waves.
So this can be combined with like a subwoofer or something.
When purely used as a tweeter, I don't see many benefits, except maybe for the directivity.
Although that can also be sorted with a proper waveguide.
Tweeters just perform better in sense of distortion, power (because of the much higher sensitivity) and frequency response.