I'm one of those dudes that's a 'quality over quantity' guy. For that reason, I always get annoyed at live gigs where the PA's can smash 45Hz or even 35Hz (in the better venues), but the bass drops just fall flat anywhere below that and at 25Hz, it's just flab. I'm interested in designing and small bookshelf unit (>= 0.5ft^3) that can hit flat to 25Hz with an F3 in the low 20's and F10 in the teens. It's obviously not gonna go super loud and I'll need a hefty amp to push it and I'm fine with that. I just want a solid set of office speakers that can actually play everything on the recordings without having to drag in a massive overkill sub. About the closest thing I can find is the TangBand W5-1138SMF, but even that tapers off around 30Hz in a ported unit. It'll do, I guess, but if there's a similar size (5 1/4") or smaller that can go lower in a small enclosure, I'm all ears!
If there is something better than this driver for this intended use, I would like to know
I'm really liking the looks of the Dayton Epique series, but looking at the specs, they just can't play very low without heavy EQ. I haven't personally played with them, but they look like a great 'punch' driver, but not 'rumble'.
https://www.parts-express.com/brand/EPIQUE-by-Dayton-Audio
https://www.parts-express.com/brand/EPIQUE-by-Dayton-Audio
Have you considered a Direct Servo subwoofer from Rythmik? They have kits too, but check out the specs on their sealed L12: https://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
We all have our self perceived image in high esteem.
Problem lies in convincing others.
No instrument used in a live gig reaches that low.
Not sure what you expect to listen.
That´s the understatement of the year.
Electrical power is not enough if your small piston can´t move all that air anyway.
There are definite physical limits and feeding extra power into it best case won´t put out what you dream and real case it will smash voice coil against back plate, tr cone and suspension to pieces, it will suicide trying to.
There is a parameter called "X Max" for a reason.
Subs are not overkill but what´s needed at those frequencies, and if they are "massive" it´s because Physics Law demands that, not user desires.
And again, no 25Hz in 99.999% of recordings, so ....
Yes, what "authority" do you expect?
A Fifteen can do a bit better than 1% efficient at 50Hz, and not distort too bad at 1 acoustic Watt @ 50Hz.
So 25Hz implies a Thirty Inch. (Or quads of Fifteens.)
Confirmed by E-V's now long-gone 30-W driver.
A Seven at 50Hz (nevermind 25Hz) at audible level is going to be all IMD and Doppler.
One way. Get a smaller room. Several heavy Twelves in a small car do flatten-out at the bottom of the audio band. Instead of radiation into "infinity" and falling to zero, they fall until the output is the ratio of front volume to back volume. 4cf in the box, 100cf in the "room", efficiency tends to 25%, which is awful good. (I'm also looking at the "race car seats" sold for computer gamers--maybe next they get a "fuselage" to hold sound in.)
A Fifteen can do a bit better than 1% efficient at 50Hz, and not distort too bad at 1 acoustic Watt @ 50Hz.
So 25Hz implies a Thirty Inch. (Or quads of Fifteens.)
Confirmed by E-V's now long-gone 30-W driver.
A Seven at 50Hz (nevermind 25Hz) at audible level is going to be all IMD and Doppler.
One way. Get a smaller room. Several heavy Twelves in a small car do flatten-out at the bottom of the audio band. Instead of radiation into "infinity" and falling to zero, they fall until the output is the ratio of front volume to back volume. 4cf in the box, 100cf in the "room", efficiency tends to 25%, which is awful good. (I'm also looking at the "race car seats" sold for computer gamers--maybe next they get a "fuselage" to hold sound in.)
If a 3” driver moved a full inch peak to peak at 25 Hz the amount of air it moves is completely inaudible. Unless the THD is high enough to hear the 75 and 125 Hz content.
There is something to be said for the way 40Hz (or even 80) ”sounds” on a speaker that is flat to 20 or 25. But that doesn’t require full output (and the necessary excursion) that low. Just the lack of excess phase.
There is something to be said for the way 40Hz (or even 80) ”sounds” on a speaker that is flat to 20 or 25. But that doesn’t require full output (and the necessary excursion) that low. Just the lack of excess phase.
Being reasonable, it's impossible for some small woofer to produce satisfying bass down to almost sub-sonic levels.
Physics say you need to move much air, thus a large cone is required.
I don't get this trend of people insisting on heavy bass,
In cars, in homes, etc...
Indeed, a satisfying musical enjoyment experience is nice, but why need for earth-shaking bass?
Physics say you need to move much air, thus a large cone is required.
I don't get this trend of people insisting on heavy bass,
In cars, in homes, etc...
Indeed, a satisfying musical enjoyment experience is nice, but why need for earth-shaking bass?
25 Hz is not gonna happen
5 1/4 inch speakers that go down to 45 Hz is somewhat of a marvel.
then immediately people want more.
assume in 7 to 12 liters the 45 Hz resonance raises way up to 55 to 65 Hz
that is all you get.
Reflex is a reflex.
listening will be nearfield so it will somewhat help with bass.
full space you might need at least 2x drivers to touch 45 hz
5 1/4 inch speakers that go down to 45 Hz is somewhat of a marvel.
then immediately people want more.
assume in 7 to 12 liters the 45 Hz resonance raises way up to 55 to 65 Hz
that is all you get.
Reflex is a reflex.
listening will be nearfield so it will somewhat help with bass.
full space you might need at least 2x drivers to touch 45 hz
Some people are just trying to re-create the “club”, “concert”, or heaven forbid “rave” experience in their homes/cars. Especially cars - because it’s the ONE place in the universe they can still go to enjoy music loud without bringing the police. And more and more people are stuck in apartments permanently these days, so expect car audio to receive the attention hi-fi used to in the 80’s. I used to get the levels quite ridiculous on the drive to Florida on I-10, not one single irate neighbor. Two LAB12’s in a pickup truck cab. If you’re not doing PA anymore you sort of miss it and every once in a while have to indulge. I was planning to resume when I quit my day job and move to the new place we’re building but the New World Situation simply may not allow it anymore.
My home system is flat to 22-ish groundplane, measured outdoors but doesn’t go ridiculously loud. I have found that even acoustic guitar (82 Hz) really only sounds “natural” on speaker that can get that low. Flat to 40 doesn’t quite get the initial attack right.
Stereo Integrity HS-24 is what you seek... good luck fitting one in a bookshelf though(wana be a strong bookshelf!)
What about the room you're in? Can it really do 25 Hz with authority? Or would it just turn to mush? I know that small cabins, like cars, can have tremendous gain the the LF and really thump and shake you. But is that possible at ~25Hz in a normal room? I don't know the answer.
My 1996 Lincoln MK VIII has the JBL Premium Sound system with a capable 300W amp, 8 speakers, 10 disk trunk-mounted CD, cassette, radio.
It's a fantastic system by itself, and I commend Lincoln for its super high quality.
However, to my taste, it needed a bit more "bottom-end", so back in 2005 I installed a 300W amp to drive a pair of trunk mounted 8 inch subs in a sealed box firing towards the back of the rear seat.
Now mind you, this 300W sub amp, to my liking, is only adjusted up to give a "subtle touch" of deep bass to the cabin area, certainly not some incredible loud teeth-rattling volume level that others seem to enjoy today.
I don't need it to drown out the already fine JBL system.
On the 4.5 hour trip years ago down to Winchester Va, the road trip was absolutely a pleasure to drive, and as picky as I am about sound, I don't feel the need to rattle windows with overblown bass.
In fact, at normal listening levels, with the windows up, you can barely hear anything outside the car from a few feet away.
I've done the sims. The 1138SMF in mono, anechoically should reach a total of, like, 80dB in the ranges you're talking about. Add in room gain and stereo, and you're generously up 9dB. Don't forget the labyrinth of a slot you have to make for each of these. If you want to hit 30 at your desk, I recommend an SVS SB3000 Micro. Each box for the Tang Band drivers, without EQ, will be approximately the same size as the Micro.
Sehlin has done a series of 3-ways with Tang Band's and other's woofer/sub combo. Here are some links for reference
https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/hafnium
https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/zirconium
According to the designer, the 6.5" was a better compromise in passive between size, reaching deep, and output.
Sehlin has done a series of 3-ways with Tang Band's and other's woofer/sub combo. Here are some links for reference
https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/hafnium
https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/zirconium
According to the designer, the 6.5" was a better compromise in passive between size, reaching deep, and output.
Funny... I used to have a pair of 12" JL in my old car driven by 2000W...
Now I have the stock BMW system with it's dual 8" under the seats and it's perfectly good enough.
I now have a 15" sealed car sub in my house for the sub 30Hz range. 950W Yorkville amplifier driving it.
I know you can get good bass with small speakers - I had a pair of Micca RB42 4" that were good to 40Hz but only 83dB so needed 50W to drive them.
Now I have the stock BMW system with it's dual 8" under the seats and it's perfectly good enough.
I now have a 15" sealed car sub in my house for the sub 30Hz range. 950W Yorkville amplifier driving it.
I know you can get good bass with small speakers - I had a pair of Micca RB42 4" that were good to 40Hz but only 83dB so needed 50W to drive them.
I'd checked out the Hafniums and Zirconiums before.
My biggest thing with the Hafniums is I can't stand a rear port. I understand they're 'omnidirectional' in the sense that you can't always tell where it's coming from, but you ain't gonna convince me that, on a table in an open space, the low end of the port will be the same SPL at listening position (a foot or two in front of the speaker) than it would be if the port was facing the listener. It's the same reason almost all PA speaker vent toward the listener.
The Zirconiums just don't have a port and I'm really wanting to get the low end of a port without having to rely on room gain (because that's super unpredictable). In all fairness, I haven't actually gotten my hands on a W6, but it seems like that would just be a bit too big by the time I add the port and all that.
I'm kinda hoping to do something similar to 123Toid and JoeNTell's 'Dinas' collaboration. I could've swore I'd seen a build thread somewhere, but I can't seem to find it now, so I'll post the youtube vids instead:
123 Toid:
JoeNTell:
The only problem with the Dinas is the port is too narrow and will make noise. Can't have that!
My biggest thing with the Hafniums is I can't stand a rear port. I understand they're 'omnidirectional' in the sense that you can't always tell where it's coming from, but you ain't gonna convince me that, on a table in an open space, the low end of the port will be the same SPL at listening position (a foot or two in front of the speaker) than it would be if the port was facing the listener. It's the same reason almost all PA speaker vent toward the listener.
The Zirconiums just don't have a port and I'm really wanting to get the low end of a port without having to rely on room gain (because that's super unpredictable). In all fairness, I haven't actually gotten my hands on a W6, but it seems like that would just be a bit too big by the time I add the port and all that.
I'm kinda hoping to do something similar to 123Toid and JoeNTell's 'Dinas' collaboration. I could've swore I'd seen a build thread somewhere, but I can't seem to find it now, so I'll post the youtube vids instead:
123 Toid:
The only problem with the Dinas is the port is too narrow and will make noise. Can't have that!
I really like that design but it could use some reworking. Maybe you could give it a shot? Again, the issue with using a deep port is the "bounce" in your max SPL. You'll get a boost down low, but your driver will bottom out faster around the 60-100dB range. A better option may just be to flare the port (and replace the godawful supertweeter on top)
It sounds like this needs more drivers…front and back push-push? Small mtn with a port next to the tweeter? The side of bookshelves can also provide space for a larger driver. Authority to me means db, maybe we can get Dave to chime in…