That's what my crossover looks like --
There's a JBL HLS 820 Technical Manual .pdf
http://diagramasde.com/diagramas/audio/HLS820 ts.pdf
and (total rookie here) apart from the diagram, I can I.D. the two electrolytic 43uF and 22uF caps w/ me own two eyes so-to-speak ... but then (now w/r/t the TM.pdf, i.e., "3mfd & 2.7mfd") the little ruby colored object on the board actually reads "5.7 J" I believe -- which may be a serial summation? I see J and read Joules but it's gotta be farads. Golly I'm ignorant lol!
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING I'VE NEVER DONE BEFORE ... NEVER REALLY EVEN DID ANY SOLDERING. But gotta (or could?) start somewhere.
This is one of those, "You've come this far, lad ..." type situations ... got several floor-standers "ready for upgrade" so by-golly -- why let a soldering iron and a capacitor get in the way?
I'm starting to get a wee-bit of paralysis by analysis methinks.
?A) So, I'm not sure (again w/r/t the JBL Technical Manual - "what's going on?") with C3?
?B) Likewise, wire 45" Green, e.g., and ANY of them, they seem rather flimsy; wiring is "stranded" assuming -- and I've seen people say "12G or 16G" or something like that ... in the States comes from Lowes or HD or Ace Hardware? Having seen suggested a little THICKER wire? I know it sound naive to ask "specifically is this thin (JBL) driver wire adequate? but it's just plain small ... I dunno. Also, connected --
?C) I see these "spades" i.e., connectors on virtually any/all these speaker drivers; see them (generally an assorted package) 2.8mm and 4.8mm ... e.g., "CynKen 2.8mm 4.8mm 6.3mm Crimp Terminals Female Spade Connectors Insulating Sleeve Kit" are sold CynKen 2.8mm 4.8mm 6.3mm Crimp Terminals Female Spade Connectors Insulating Sleeve Kit: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
consequently then (my "immediate need") is females no double-entendre! as existing drivers are "generally" apparently male ... there's slightly more exotic kits w/ males AND a "Crimper" -- or just needle nose? ... So, is one brand or style or "set" better? However, reason I'm asking is
?D) More plainly, if all goes well I may well be re-configuring some other XO networks ... so there's nearly bound to be "some future XO network install" at "some point" other drivers that need wiring(s) ...
?E) ... so, yes, I did read the most-excellent So You Want To Repair Audio gear, Eh? Here's the tools you need... | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums So You Want To Repair Audio gear, Eh? for what comprehension w/in (my) immediate grasp (prolly seems trivial to most DIY'ers) yet what STRICTLY pertains -- seems as if Female Spade Connectors ... that ONE item [for re-capping AND re-wire] "might hang things up?"
AllenB also suggested some "alligator clips" [which made sense] beings there's potential forthcoming "XO experiments" and the local Micro Center ("Computers and Electronic Device Retailer") has them along with some solder braid (or solder wick I think is called?) and naturally solder station(s).
Then last, and prolly most obvious question, are there specific brand/type of film caps that "most folks might use" with this particular (aprox. $500/pr list) JBL? I mean if I were guessing they're around $5 ea. or something, but "fitment" maybe guides a choice? e.g., if they're too big, might not fit the board?
Those units are microfarads - uF for short.
Keep the same uF values, and same or higher DC voltage, when replacing.
Be absolutely certain that the replacements are bipolar types.
You don't want to use film caps, they won't even come close to fitting the board.
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"Non-polarized capacitors may only be replaced with other non-polarized capacitors, unless you know the circuit will only ever apply voltage in one polarity."
I thought the existing were non-polar ...
And it's C3 that I can't directly read from the board.
c1 and c2 SAY 43 and 22uF "micro-farads" right on the caps. and they seem to look like non-polar, electrolytic. always possible I stumbled into parallel universe or "this is just a test" I'm open minded
I thought the existing were non-polar ...
And it's C3 that I can't directly read from the board.
c1 and c2 SAY 43 and 22uF "micro-farads" right on the caps. and they seem to look like non-polar, electrolytic. always possible I stumbled into parallel universe or "this is just a test" I'm open minded
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meaning, unless I'm wrong, I've yet to I.D. (fully) only 1 out of the 3 caps, I think, the two blue barrel shaped buggers - everything I'd seen so far indicated C1 and C2 were (and are) - non-polar; having no polarity, functional independent of current "direction" but golly maybe that's wrong.
These were made in 1998. "Be absolutely certain that the replacements are bipolar types." Electrolytic are NONpolar, generally, I'd assumed.
But the FIT, for sure, was a major concern, and so ... "Replace like w/ like" ??
However, not doin' nuttin' Lol! lest I can I.D. sumpin'
These were made in 1998. "Be absolutely certain that the replacements are bipolar types." Electrolytic are NONpolar, generally, I'd assumed.
But the FIT, for sure, was a major concern, and so ... "Replace like w/ like" ??
However, not doin' nuttin' Lol! lest I can I.D. sumpin'
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Since I've replaced the tweeters, like for like, the JBL HLS 820 don't sound "bad", factually, they sound OK. But every dog gone thing I've read indicates "one or more caps have likely drifted out-of-spec," tho that itself is a PRESUMPTION.
I'd yet to ask about "testing," beings that's (very likely) beyond my present capabilities. I'm not OPPOSED to some sort of testing, but can cap(s) like that even be tested w/o removing from the board?
I'd yet to ask about "testing," beings that's (very likely) beyond my present capabilities. I'm not OPPOSED to some sort of testing, but can cap(s) like that even be tested w/o removing from the board?
but the funny thing still is, the two blue barrel-shaped c1 and c2 are clearly marked.
c3 is most likely the red-ish thing, covered in silicone
and c3 is the thing that's unclear; the schematic seems to indicate two distinct values 3.0 and 2.7 but the red item indicates 5.7 ... perhaps a sum
c3 is most likely the red-ish thing, covered in silicone
and c3 is the thing that's unclear; the schematic seems to indicate two distinct values 3.0 and 2.7 but the red item indicates 5.7 ... perhaps a sum
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The schematic seems clear enough. The C1 is 43uF, and the C2 is 22uF.
The C3 can be either 3uF or 2.7uF, depending on the option as built.
Option #001 is 3uF. Option #002 is 2.7uF. But only one or the other.
Not stated is why there are two options, but go with the one that you have.
The C3 capacitor will be marked somewhere on the part with its value.
All these capacitors are bipolar electrolytic types.
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The red component (C3?) looks like a film cap to me, based on the photo in the first post. I can't see it well though. Film caps usually are blocks and can have rounded edges, bipolar capacitors usually are metal cylinders with a plastic wrap.
Film caps do not have to be replaced.
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My apologies -- sure enough it says 2.7J
And so yes, I'm assume suggests the Technical sheet pertains to (in some particulars) the HLS "series" of speakers ...
"J" ... so an imprint indicating uF with a J symbol ...?
Looking at Parts Express, is pretty easy to see the (diameter) dimensions of "film" caps are "3x's as large."
At Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions e.g., I didn't see a 43uF cap, only 47uF. Or 33 & 10 in parallel??
I have seen suggested "connect them in parallel" --
Even this
22uF 22uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
design apparently "takes things away from the board, a little" --- but would still (very very likely) squeeze in the space.
So this boils down to a very basic question: I want to replace the 2 (two) capacitors -- which should one use?
... There should be (one would think) precise reasons for ruling out film caps? Either "cost VS reward," or the fact they MIGHT not fit (fit back into the cabinet). So maybe the gamble is a bad one, and COST risk VS reward -- for the novice?
... about the female spades, and better wiring? but makes sense one-step-at-a-time naturally.
And so yes, I'm assume suggests the Technical sheet pertains to (in some particulars) the HLS "series" of speakers ...
"J" ... so an imprint indicating uF with a J symbol ...?
Looking at Parts Express, is pretty easy to see the (diameter) dimensions of "film" caps are "3x's as large."
At Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions e.g., I didn't see a 43uF cap, only 47uF. Or 33 & 10 in parallel??
I have seen suggested "connect them in parallel" --
Even this
22uF 22uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
design apparently "takes things away from the board, a little" --- but would still (very very likely) squeeze in the space.
So this boils down to a very basic question: I want to replace the 2 (two) capacitors -- which should one use?
... There should be (one would think) precise reasons for ruling out film caps? Either "cost VS reward," or the fact they MIGHT not fit (fit back into the cabinet). So maybe the gamble is a bad one, and COST risk VS reward -- for the novice?
... about the female spades, and better wiring? but makes sense one-step-at-a-time naturally.
This small board is not suitable for substituting film caps for C1 and C2.
Don't even consider that for this speaker.
Capacitor C3 is a film cap because of its much smaller uf value.
For the 43uF capacitor, you may have to settle for 47uF,
if that is the closest value that you can order. It is within 10%,
and that is usually acceptable. The 22uF cap is a standard value.
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J = 5% tolerance. Capacitors with no unit or prefix marking are expressing in pF or µF. p = pico = 10^-12, µ = micro = 10^-6. Which one is applicable can be estimated from the dimensions and expected value.
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OK , Ok, so from my notes, granted whats here below isn't precisely or carefully worded, but nobody really precisely (time & stuff matters - it's all good) -- the idea is there I'm not just concerned about ONE capacitor network ONE time (in life -- there's more than one pair speakers need caps! -- it'd be nonsense start a separate thread for 3 or 4 questions all same subject) ...
so from notes about "what I don't know about what approach" is culled the following and yes takes a wee bit ciphering but the questions, PLURAL, 3-4 of them, are THERE:
Capacitor tolerance option?
Capacitor tolerance option?
e.g., that little brief thread Capacitor tolerance option? talks about this, 43uF vs. 47uF, the subject matter, a little bit. I'm not quoting the whole (1-page) thread but the "Capacitor tolerance option?" reasoning is there (from one or more experienced DIY-er) ...
¬¬¬
¬¬¬
I also read a DIY thread here the other day (couldn't find today) says (essentially) "Gone are days when you'd go thru bins, measuring and cap-matching at local electronics store... &tc. &tc."
¬¬¬
So, anyway, w/r/t "Capacitor tolerance option?" I noticed
"Short answer; NO"
&
"And anyway, 5% error is just 2.5% overall change in crossover. Root 1/LC an' all that."
¬¬¬
Of course ... had crossed my mind [43uF VS 47uF] to try plug & chug in a so-called crossover calculator ... IF POSSIBLE!? ... dead-ended me [couple of my OTHER old tower speakers REQUIRE 'furbish and/or "entire" XO networks!] ... for a reason. Couple of reasons, actually.
... anyhow, 3rd Butterworth (perhaps?) and a speaker w/ TWO woofers and single tweeter ... 2-way crossover with 3 drivers. Hm. Er, uh, DOES ONE (ever) USE cookbook in this instance, i.e., is it POSSIBLE w/ dual woofers/single tweeter to calculate (in 6 seconds whatever) a deviation - theoretical - a 47 uF might cause "away from" 2600Hz?
Anyhow JBL says these HLS 820 speaker towers "cross at 2600Hz."
That seems like a reasonable question, i.e., "3rd Butterworth, increase one (just one) cap + 10%, might that increase XO frequency 5%?" Or 3%? ...
Yet it's fair to speculate on DIY-type thread ... "
... How does one say, "Should we be COMPLETELY comfortable R&R 43uF w/ 47uF?"
Again, HLS 820, with TWIN woofers and one tweeter, 2-way XO, 3rd order? ... Could just ask, "What is the (numerical/cookbook) effect of re-capping with a 47uF versus a 43uF?"
JBL says these cross at "2600Hz" ...
there is a square-root LC calculation? And if there is, what is it?
So on a discussion board, about DIY, w/r/t 'furbish a $600 pair of speakers, is ENTIRELY NATURAL to ask about "How might 10% -- or even more%? deviation(s) in capacitor value(s) -- thinking cumulatively -- affect (audibly?)... "
IOW, I "get it," that JBL used "cheap tweeters" in these speakers, and theoretically, they may have Fs on order of 10 Khz or some crazy thing, but they "spec" 2600Hz crossover ...
One should - if convenient - calculate, should one not? ... That replacing a 43uF with a 47uF [i.e., + 5%] means hypothetically replacing a (roughly) 43uF with circa 50uF (49.5 to be precise outside edge) ... on the order of 10%.
I'm struggling to put forth well-posed question(s). No, I don't own a calibrated mic, nor an ESR meter ... Doesn't mean I wouldn't EVER own one, or both of them Lol!
My point is, just asking "yes or no?" type questions, or "Please tell me the numerical value?" that's pretty ... how does one say? There's a little more generalized ... Ok, e.g., a crossover calculator presumes ... I have what looks like a 2.5-way XO on a 3-way or dual-woofer.
Drilling down on this (or these) type question(s) for "A REASON".
[... question - likewise pertains to a pair of late 1990's Pioneer floorstanding speakers w/ "dual LF drivers, a mid, and a tweeter" and likewise I've a pair of Mitsubishi (circa 2000) same setup. The Pioneer's seem to have no crossover whatsoever...]
... Anyhow this specific question about this particular [JBL HLS 820] speaker -- turns out there IS an electronics store here-in-town that "has 47uF caps [radial?]" and who ARE willing to take measurements on a few from their stock
SO, WHAT TO DO? With $600 SPEAKERS [20+ years old with "good" surrounds and sound pretty nice]?
WOULD YOU, perhaps, TAKE THE ENTIRE "XO NETWORK" TO AN ELECTRONICS SHOP -- AND MEASURE THE CAPS -- BOTH "BEFORE" & "AFTER"?
And how, and why, or why not?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
... I don't feel ENTIRELY comfortable, "Relying entirely upon the so-called techs at the Shop," especially beings when I asked the gentleman on the phone about "measuring his 47uF caps?" he said, "Yes we're capable doing that," but when I asked about, "Using ESR meter?" he said "Although I don't know what that is - there's guys been here longer that will!"
So yes, that's quite-a-bit-of-ziggin-and-zagging, but SURELY there's merit in asking HERE, at the DIY forums, BEFORE I go to the shop and make an even bigger mess.
... entirely grateful for what's been gleaned so far. Still in some senses, there's "vagaries" -- film caps were "ruled out" beings they "won't fit the board" -- so has been (strongly) insinuated they're inappropriate. But they'd (maybe? likely? likely not?) "fit into the 3" x 4" opening" in the cabinet?
Yes, they'd "dangle" if they were fully 2" dia (film caps) ... I read that (mainly?) ceramics were susceptible to vibration. So when something is "ruled out" ... specifically because ?
Then there's these spade connectors. Nobody ever responded one-way-or-other if "2.8 and 3.8mm female spades" and/or 14 gauge or 12 gauge or whatnot wire IS "better to connect from the board to the drivers" ?
It's partly due my effusive ... but anyhow, GOTTA START SOMEWHERE,
It is understood, perhaps, that I'd like to
A) go to shop
B) take (roughly-a-dozen) 47uF caps from bin
C) measure, and HOPE to discover a PAIR that actually measure 44uF or 45uF
D) but MAYBE is "best to measure the 22uF and 43uF while still on the boards?"
so from notes about "what I don't know about what approach" is culled the following and yes takes a wee bit ciphering but the questions, PLURAL, 3-4 of them, are THERE:
Capacitor tolerance option?
Capacitor tolerance option?
e.g., that little brief thread Capacitor tolerance option? talks about this, 43uF vs. 47uF, the subject matter, a little bit. I'm not quoting the whole (1-page) thread but the "Capacitor tolerance option?" reasoning is there (from one or more experienced DIY-er) ...
¬¬¬
¬¬¬
I also read a DIY thread here the other day (couldn't find today) says (essentially) "Gone are days when you'd go thru bins, measuring and cap-matching at local electronics store... &tc. &tc."
¬¬¬
So, anyway, w/r/t "Capacitor tolerance option?" I noticed
"Short answer; NO"
&
"And anyway, 5% error is just 2.5% overall change in crossover. Root 1/LC an' all that."
¬¬¬
Of course ... had crossed my mind [43uF VS 47uF] to try plug & chug in a so-called crossover calculator ... IF POSSIBLE!? ... dead-ended me [couple of my OTHER old tower speakers REQUIRE 'furbish and/or "entire" XO networks!] ... for a reason. Couple of reasons, actually.
... anyhow, 3rd Butterworth (perhaps?) and a speaker w/ TWO woofers and single tweeter ... 2-way crossover with 3 drivers. Hm. Er, uh, DOES ONE (ever) USE cookbook in this instance, i.e., is it POSSIBLE w/ dual woofers/single tweeter to calculate (in 6 seconds whatever) a deviation - theoretical - a 47 uF might cause "away from" 2600Hz?
Anyhow JBL says these HLS 820 speaker towers "cross at 2600Hz."
That seems like a reasonable question, i.e., "3rd Butterworth, increase one (just one) cap + 10%, might that increase XO frequency 5%?" Or 3%? ...
Yet it's fair to speculate on DIY-type thread ... "
... How does one say, "Should we be COMPLETELY comfortable R&R 43uF w/ 47uF?"
Again, HLS 820, with TWIN woofers and one tweeter, 2-way XO, 3rd order? ... Could just ask, "What is the (numerical/cookbook) effect of re-capping with a 47uF versus a 43uF?"
JBL says these cross at "2600Hz" ...
there is a square-root LC calculation? And if there is, what is it?
So on a discussion board, about DIY, w/r/t 'furbish a $600 pair of speakers, is ENTIRELY NATURAL to ask about "How might 10% -- or even more%? deviation(s) in capacitor value(s) -- thinking cumulatively -- affect (audibly?)... "
IOW, I "get it," that JBL used "cheap tweeters" in these speakers, and theoretically, they may have Fs on order of 10 Khz or some crazy thing, but they "spec" 2600Hz crossover ...
One should - if convenient - calculate, should one not? ... That replacing a 43uF with a 47uF [i.e., + 5%] means hypothetically replacing a (roughly) 43uF with circa 50uF (49.5 to be precise outside edge) ... on the order of 10%.
I'm struggling to put forth well-posed question(s). No, I don't own a calibrated mic, nor an ESR meter ... Doesn't mean I wouldn't EVER own one, or both of them Lol!
My point is, just asking "yes or no?" type questions, or "Please tell me the numerical value?" that's pretty ... how does one say? There's a little more generalized ... Ok, e.g., a crossover calculator presumes ... I have what looks like a 2.5-way XO on a 3-way or dual-woofer.
Drilling down on this (or these) type question(s) for "A REASON".
[... question - likewise pertains to a pair of late 1990's Pioneer floorstanding speakers w/ "dual LF drivers, a mid, and a tweeter" and likewise I've a pair of Mitsubishi (circa 2000) same setup. The Pioneer's seem to have no crossover whatsoever...]
... Anyhow this specific question about this particular [JBL HLS 820] speaker -- turns out there IS an electronics store here-in-town that "has 47uF caps [radial?]" and who ARE willing to take measurements on a few from their stock
SO, WHAT TO DO? With $600 SPEAKERS [20+ years old with "good" surrounds and sound pretty nice]?
WOULD YOU, perhaps, TAKE THE ENTIRE "XO NETWORK" TO AN ELECTRONICS SHOP -- AND MEASURE THE CAPS -- BOTH "BEFORE" & "AFTER"?
And how, and why, or why not?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
... I don't feel ENTIRELY comfortable, "Relying entirely upon the so-called techs at the Shop," especially beings when I asked the gentleman on the phone about "measuring his 47uF caps?" he said, "Yes we're capable doing that," but when I asked about, "Using ESR meter?" he said "Although I don't know what that is - there's guys been here longer that will!"
So yes, that's quite-a-bit-of-ziggin-and-zagging, but SURELY there's merit in asking HERE, at the DIY forums, BEFORE I go to the shop and make an even bigger mess.
... entirely grateful for what's been gleaned so far. Still in some senses, there's "vagaries" -- film caps were "ruled out" beings they "won't fit the board" -- so has been (strongly) insinuated they're inappropriate. But they'd (maybe? likely? likely not?) "fit into the 3" x 4" opening" in the cabinet?
Yes, they'd "dangle" if they were fully 2" dia (film caps) ... I read that (mainly?) ceramics were susceptible to vibration. So when something is "ruled out" ... specifically because ?
Then there's these spade connectors. Nobody ever responded one-way-or-other if "2.8 and 3.8mm female spades" and/or 14 gauge or 12 gauge or whatnot wire IS "better to connect from the board to the drivers" ?
It's partly due my effusive ... but anyhow, GOTTA START SOMEWHERE,
It is understood, perhaps, that I'd like to
A) go to shop
B) take (roughly-a-dozen) 47uF caps from bin
C) measure, and HOPE to discover a PAIR that actually measure 44uF or 45uF
D) but MAYBE is "best to measure the 22uF and 43uF while still on the boards?"
Ah rats I shoulda edited quicker -- can hardly read that myself -- 30 minutes later no chance to but it's ok.
I found this In replacing capacitors on a circuit board, can you... | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums which will help me in the process.
This is a "more advanced" DIY forum but in final analysis still think it's "ultimately OK"
I found this In replacing capacitors on a circuit board, can you... | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums which will help me in the process.
This is a "more advanced" DIY forum but in final analysis still think it's "ultimately OK"
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