DIY Carnival Sound System ?
Two threads have been merged.
Hi.
We did our local carnival at the weekend and our system was drowned out by others.
Can anyone recommend an amp module and speaker that I could build into a home made cabinet that would produce a good loud volume. Ideally working off 12volts so we could power it using a car battery.
Something like a more powerful version of this?
MKll Tripath TA2024 fully finished&tested pcb 2x15watt | eBay
Two threads have been merged. Hi.
We did our local carnival at the weekend and our system was drowned out by others.
Can anyone recommend an amp module and speaker that I could build into a home made cabinet that would produce a good loud volume. Ideally working off 12volts so we could power it using a car battery.
Something like a more powerful version of this?
MKll Tripath TA2024 fully finished&tested pcb 2x15watt | eBay
Hi,
I've just posted in the PA section of the forum so please excuse posting here too.
I'm looking for a full range speaker to fit into a DIY cabinet to use on a carnival float.
Any recommendations would be gratefully received.
Adri
I've just posted in the PA section of the forum so please excuse posting here too.
I'm looking for a full range speaker to fit into a DIY cabinet to use on a carnival float.
Any recommendations would be gratefully received.
Adri
Greets!
Unless someone here just happens to know the audio performance requirements for a carnival float in general and yours in particular, you're going to have to elaborate since my first thought is that a 'full-range' driver isn't going to be anywhere near loud nor focused enough without a large horn. Then there's the water/moisture proofing required.............
GM
Unless someone here just happens to know the audio performance requirements for a carnival float in general and yours in particular, you're going to have to elaborate since my first thought is that a 'full-range' driver isn't going to be anywhere near loud nor focused enough without a large horn. Then there's the water/moisture proofing required.............
GM
We use two 1kW power amps feeding four 15" and four 12"drivers built into four cabinets. One on each corner. And four Tannoy 50W PA Horns that are fed from a 200W power amp. A small mixing desk for music and microphones.
When flat out, we can be heard with any sort of quality in open air only 200yds. We used a Nexo 9kW system with subs last year and blew everyone else away. Got told off for that!
When flat out, we can be heard with any sort of quality in open air only 200yds. We used a Nexo 9kW system with subs last year and blew everyone else away. Got told off for that!
Wow!!! There's no way we can justify spending on that kind of gear. I want to get what I can for £100.00 or thereabouts. I've seen a 2x50w tripath module on ebay for £22.95. If we went for that what full range speakers would match the module?
Thanks for the help!!!!
Thanks for the help!!!!
What was everyone else running?, mains or battery, and what kinds of speakers?.
Essentially off a 12V battery you can get 4W RMS to 4 ohms (single ended), or 16W RMS with a bridged amp - anything else is imaginary power.
To get more power you need to increase the voltage, and higher power amps use a DC to DC converter to give higher power rails - but obviously take MUCH more current from the battery.
Here's an example of a suitable power supply, and a good site generally:
Switchmode Power Supply For Car Audio
You need to be aware that if you use a car amp they almost always totally exaggerate their power massively - with a 50W amp often called 1000W 😀
Essentially off a 12V battery you can get 4W RMS to 4 ohms (single ended), or 16W RMS with a bridged amp - anything else is imaginary power.
To get more power you need to increase the voltage, and higher power amps use a DC to DC converter to give higher power rails - but obviously take MUCH more current from the battery.
Here's an example of a suitable power supply, and a good site generally:
Switchmode Power Supply For Car Audio
You need to be aware that if you use a car amp they almost always totally exaggerate their power massively - with a 50W amp often called 1000W 😀
Hi Nigel. It was Tideswell Carnival. You may have been there as I see you're in North Derbyshire.
Currently looking at generators on ebay and they're quite cheap for a 0.75 Kw genny so perhaps 240v is possible.
Currently looking at generators on ebay and they're quite cheap for a 0.75 Kw genny so perhaps 240v is possible.
No, I wasn't there, but I know Andrew Burns well, as he fits satellite dishes for us - I presume you know Andrew, as it's not a big place 😀
A better solution - just remember to take extra petrol for it! 😛
As has been pointed out, it's not really possible to give you great advice without knowing more specifics about the requirements. Are these going to play music? or are they only for announcements?
It's unlikely 50w amps will be nearly enough. 1kW is more like it.
If the former, I'd recommend a couple K15 Karlsons. Forget full range drivers. Load them with the best used 15" pro drivers you can swindle, and a couple cheap piezo horns for the highs. Check out this old thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/237948-speaker-kicks-butt-large-spaces.html
For the latter, just find yourself a used PA announcement horn.
It's unlikely 50w amps will be nearly enough. 1kW is more like it.
If the former, I'd recommend a couple K15 Karlsons. Forget full range drivers. Load them with the best used 15" pro drivers you can swindle, and a couple cheap piezo horns for the highs. Check out this old thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/237948-speaker-kicks-butt-large-spaces.html
For the latter, just find yourself a used PA announcement horn.
the original Karlson cabinet + a decent 15" woofer - Piezo without any transformer will be loud enough to work. K15 has low cone excursion and an adept upper bass - much better than most "fullrange" setups and many horn.
Sorry but absolutely impossible.
For "for £100.00 or thereabouts" all you can buy is a puny very low power car type amp and a couple 6x9" car type speakers.
Enough to listen to some music *inside* a car, but outside and even more, under Carnival noise conditions, won´t be heard 2 feet away.
As JonSnell (who is experienced) says, you need Kilowatts of power .
With 12V battery power, those Tripaths will not provide more than 20W RMS into 4 ohms each.
On the other end, look at what justly famous Brazilian Carnival floats use , we are talking 20 to 50KW RMS (not PMPO or any nonsense) *per float* here:
This one is around 100KW RMS.
Click the picture to full open and look through the black metal grills for the big horn loaded speakers and racks of power amplifiers.
FWIW this was the first "Trio Elétrico" car ... around 1950:
For "for £100.00 or thereabouts" all you can buy is a puny very low power car type amp and a couple 6x9" car type speakers.
Enough to listen to some music *inside* a car, but outside and even more, under Carnival noise conditions, won´t be heard 2 feet away.
As JonSnell (who is experienced) says, you need Kilowatts of power .
With 12V battery power, those Tripaths will not provide more than 20W RMS into 4 ohms each.
On the other end, look at what justly famous Brazilian Carnival floats use , we are talking 20 to 50KW RMS (not PMPO or any nonsense) *per float* here:
This one is around 100KW RMS.
Click the picture to full open and look through the black metal grills for the big horn loaded speakers and racks of power amplifiers.
FWIW this was the first "Trio Elétrico" car ... around 1950:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
at the current exchange rate, that's about $170USD - here - two sheets of 3/4" plywood would run maybe $70 before taxes. K15 takes one sheet plus a scrap. Eminence woofers here sometimes go between $50 and $80
http://classicaudio.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_08_2011/post-329-1385471361,079.png
http://classicaudio.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_08_2011/post-329-1385471361,079.png
If you are competing with marching bands (saw on Google images), you will need something quite big. They can reach >120dB @ 1m and to get near that, you will be looking at 12" drivers or bigger. Try high (98dB) efficiency PA cabs, probably one per corner, and don't expect any bass without subs. Your 0.75kW generator will power about 300W of class AB amplifier, and that might just be enough without subs. A lot does depend on what you are using them for, e.g. voices only, live band, recorded rock, dubstep, classical...
HTH,
Brian
HTH,
Brian
Oh, just saw your other post.
We all answered in good faith based on typical loud and crowded "real" Carnival conditions ... you should have warned us you were referring to *this*:
If all you need is to match that marching band or even bagpipe volume, just get some local band rent you (or temporarily donate 😉 ) any 100/200W RMS PA they have and get the small petrol generator to feed it.
2 details:
1) as said above, be certain to have some extra petrol.
2) make certain that it´s not so noisy that the engine swamps the Music.
3) PLAY IT SAFE: PETROL GENERATORS BOUNCING ON TOP OF CARS/TRUCKS ARE DANGEROUS.
ALSO BE CAREFUL WITH SPARE PETROL CANS: GASOLINE FUMES (OR EVEN WORSE, A SPILL) CAN START A TRAGEDY.
We all answered in good faith based on typical loud and crowded "real" Carnival conditions ... you should have warned us you were referring to *this*:
If all you need is to match that marching band or even bagpipe volume, just get some local band rent you (or temporarily donate 😉 ) any 100/200W RMS PA they have and get the small petrol generator to feed it.
2 details:
1) as said above, be certain to have some extra petrol.
2) make certain that it´s not so noisy that the engine swamps the Music.
3) PLAY IT SAFE: PETROL GENERATORS BOUNCING ON TOP OF CARS/TRUCKS ARE DANGEROUS.
ALSO BE CAREFUL WITH SPARE PETROL CANS: GASOLINE FUMES (OR EVEN WORSE, A SPILL) CAN START A TRAGEDY.
LOL, aw, this is a little town parade. I had envisioned monstrous floats and a crowd of thousands.
I would just get some autosound speakers and put them in a box outside, run them off the car stereo, and call it a day.
I would just get some autosound speakers and put them in a box outside, run them off the car stereo, and call it a day.
Yes it isn't Rio!!!! Just a small village carnival. But some of the systems some floats have are LOUD. What I want to do is have people hear our themed music around our float without it being drowned out by the next float that does have a 200w PA. I think JMFahey's suggestion of locally borrowed PA and bought genny is the way to go.
Many thanks to all.
Many thanks to all.
It depends on the SPL you would like to have the audience feel/hear and how far away they are. We are not talking high fidelity here but more like pleasant sounding and not "too" distorted. If I had to guess, let's estimate the requirements from assumptions.
1. Street width is 80 ft, float drives down middle or distance from float to first row of audience is 40 ft or 12 meters away.
2. Desired SPL at farthest distance we assume is same as loud dance floor level where you have to speak in a raised voice bordering on yelling to hear one another = 89 dB SPL.
3. Add 10 dB dynamic headroom so you need 99 dB at 12 m away.
Now calculate speaker SPL required at 1 m and power required to get 99 dB at 17 m away, and assume 10% distortion is acceptable.
If I did the math right (every doubling of distance is +6dB), I think that requires about 114 dB at 1 m. Not trivial but not crazy loud either.
Let's look at solution:
A cheap $6 CD and built-in plastic horn with about 105 dB sensitivity can be bought (yes, it has about 10% HD but that is OK) - sounds OK. Get qnty 4 cheap $15 x 12 inch drivers with 88 dB sensitivity - run them in parallel for 94 dB sensitivity at 2 wats into 4 ohms (2 drivers per channel) . They are high Qts deals so put in sealed boxes with stuffing to hit 60 Hz. $60 for four woofers + $12 for 2 CD's. $72 total. That leaves $90 for amp and XO.
To get 114 dB from 94 dB is +20dB or about 200 watts from 2 watts starting point. You will need a 200 watt/ch stereo amp for bass and a much smaller amp for tweeters - probably a $20 class D can work. The 200 w/ch amp can be done for about $60 with an IRS2092 type amp and a qnty 6 lead acid 12 volt batteries for +/- 36 volt power supply. Still no crossover but I assume you have that somewhere already.
Still no money for sealed boxes yet. So may be possible if you are handy and can find affordable free materials to supplement: enclosures need wood and need a 2-way line-level active XO.
Edit - just saw photos, cut distance and SPL by -10 dB so probably can save enough $for boxes and XO now. 😀
1. Street width is 80 ft, float drives down middle or distance from float to first row of audience is 40 ft or 12 meters away.
2. Desired SPL at farthest distance we assume is same as loud dance floor level where you have to speak in a raised voice bordering on yelling to hear one another = 89 dB SPL.
3. Add 10 dB dynamic headroom so you need 99 dB at 12 m away.
Now calculate speaker SPL required at 1 m and power required to get 99 dB at 17 m away, and assume 10% distortion is acceptable.
If I did the math right (every doubling of distance is +6dB), I think that requires about 114 dB at 1 m. Not trivial but not crazy loud either.
Let's look at solution:
A cheap $6 CD and built-in plastic horn with about 105 dB sensitivity can be bought (yes, it has about 10% HD but that is OK) - sounds OK. Get qnty 4 cheap $15 x 12 inch drivers with 88 dB sensitivity - run them in parallel for 94 dB sensitivity at 2 wats into 4 ohms (2 drivers per channel) . They are high Qts deals so put in sealed boxes with stuffing to hit 60 Hz. $60 for four woofers + $12 for 2 CD's. $72 total. That leaves $90 for amp and XO.
To get 114 dB from 94 dB is +20dB or about 200 watts from 2 watts starting point. You will need a 200 watt/ch stereo amp for bass and a much smaller amp for tweeters - probably a $20 class D can work. The 200 w/ch amp can be done for about $60 with an IRS2092 type amp and a qnty 6 lead acid 12 volt batteries for +/- 36 volt power supply. Still no crossover but I assume you have that somewhere already.
Still no money for sealed boxes yet. So may be possible if you are handy and can find affordable free materials to supplement: enclosures need wood and need a 2-way line-level active XO.
Edit - just saw photos, cut distance and SPL by -10 dB so probably can save enough $for boxes and XO now. 😀
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@ xrk971
I'm a joiner so making the boxes isn't going to be a problem. I have loads of MDF and ply lying around.
you mention a 'cheap $6 CD and built in plastic horn' Any chance you can show a picture/link to one so I know what I'm looking for.
Along with my son James we made this... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/255927-tl-boombox-tribute-act.html which is now finished and sounds great. Tripath 15w per channel module from ebay.
It's bluetooth and runs of 8 AA batteries and what I'd like to do is just double it in size and power and that would do the trick. It wouldn't be the full power PA but would be enough for our small village carnival...
I'm a joiner so making the boxes isn't going to be a problem. I have loads of MDF and ply lying around.
you mention a 'cheap $6 CD and built in plastic horn' Any chance you can show a picture/link to one so I know what I'm looking for.
Along with my son James we made this... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/255927-tl-boombox-tribute-act.html which is now finished and sounds great. Tripath 15w per channel module from ebay.
It's bluetooth and runs of 8 AA batteries and what I'd like to do is just double it in size and power and that would do the trick. It wouldn't be the full power PA but would be enough for our small village carnival...
I'm thinking your not too close to Cornwall - going by the men working the bags?
But If you are, I'll loan you a pair of PA speakers....... an with a 20w you'd be able to be naughty......
The community you live in 'should' (might) support your cause.
Phone round every where that rents PA kit, tell them your situation and BARTER......
Then place advert in village shops in your local asking for the loan of a jenny and what it's for..... and BARTER.
If you dont ask, you dont know
(I do bits-n-bobs of charity work, so know these things are possible / work)
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