For 8 inch "full-range" (wide band) drivers....
What has been learned about techniques to get rid of (or minimize) that obnoxious phenomena??
TIA!
Greg
What has been learned about techniques to get rid of (or minimize) that obnoxious phenomena??
TIA!
Greg
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
1. replace it, get a better driver; this is the most reliable option but requires the ability to detach yourself from a bad purchase decision. Search for negative reviews of your intended driver to unearth those with issues (too many +Ve reviews by people with cloth ears, conflicts of interest etc. can hide the reality).
2. EQ the signal (notch filter, treble cut etc.) - the better the recording quality the less needed, usually.
3. Soften the room (cover hard surfaces), listen off-axis.
In my experience, cone treatments are limited in their ability to fix this issue.
2. EQ the signal (notch filter, treble cut etc.) - the better the recording quality the less needed, usually.
3. Soften the room (cover hard surfaces), listen off-axis.
In my experience, cone treatments are limited in their ability to fix this issue.
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Thanks Bigun...
Regarding the first point..... I'm not sure this isn't endemic to the genre.... I've gotten that impression..
For just the reasons you mentioned...... Those reasons make it hard to know the reality...
In fact, the driver in question had universally rave reviews.........
It's possible that my ears are just to sensitive for my own good I suppose..
I was hoping to gain knowledge on how to mitigate this without/before using EQ, notch filters etc...
I will if I must... but hopefully not before improving the driver to the extent possible..
Listen off axis is somewhat helpful.... as is knowing that cone treatments only do so much..
That's pretty much what I figured.....
Just wanted to dredge for knowledge on the subject.... since there is so much accumulated knowledge around here...
Cheers..
Regarding the first point..... I'm not sure this isn't endemic to the genre.... I've gotten that impression..
For just the reasons you mentioned...... Those reasons make it hard to know the reality...
In fact, the driver in question had universally rave reviews.........
It's possible that my ears are just to sensitive for my own good I suppose..
I was hoping to gain knowledge on how to mitigate this without/before using EQ, notch filters etc...
I will if I must... but hopefully not before improving the driver to the extent possible..
Listen off axis is somewhat helpful.... as is knowing that cone treatments only do so much..
That's pretty much what I figured.....
Just wanted to dredge for knowledge on the subject.... since there is so much accumulated knowledge around here...
Cheers..
Wharfedale found it advantageous to damp the edge of the 'whizzer' cone of 8" and 10" units with a soft material in order to reduce the 'liveliness' in the response.
Attachments
Helpful! Thank you!
Has anyone tried this stuff in that application?
Nothing specific to recommend it.... other than the supplied brush and a consistency correct for careful (not sloppy) brush application...
Other than that, it's just one of the many "liquid-rubber" products so common now...
One would clean off the brush and apply a light coat before applying to whizzer (or elsewhere)..
PS: I wish I knew how to size images?
Has anyone tried this stuff in that application?
Nothing specific to recommend it.... other than the supplied brush and a consistency correct for careful (not sloppy) brush application...
Other than that, it's just one of the many "liquid-rubber" products so common now...
One would clean off the brush and apply a light coat before applying to whizzer (or elsewhere)..
PS: I wish I knew how to size images?
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I was thinking more along the lines of foam tape applied, Wharfedale style, to the under edge of the whizzer cone.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/173872911407?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dacad72d50a634a3d83b77d7fafc80374%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D12%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D183791187670%26itm%3D173872911407%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2385738&var=472593637783
May be easier to remove than liquid rubber if the end result proves unsatisfactory.
However, both ideas risk irreversible damage to the whizzer cone on removal!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/173872911407?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dacad72d50a634a3d83b77d7fafc80374%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D12%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D183791187670%26itm%3D173872911407%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2385738&var=472593637783
May be easier to remove than liquid rubber if the end result proves unsatisfactory.
However, both ideas risk irreversible damage to the whizzer cone on removal!
I found this to be problematic. The problem itself is simple: distortion at higher levels.
EQing the response flat works until you turn it up, and then the screech is back.
The solution is also fairly simple: accept that you're at the limit of what a single driver can do, and move to multi-way.
Not everyone manages that. Once I moved away from full-range drivers, I became much happier with my stereo. I can now play anything I like, at any volume I like.
Chris
EQing the response flat works until you turn it up, and then the screech is back.
The solution is also fairly simple: accept that you're at the limit of what a single driver can do, and move to multi-way.
Not everyone manages that. Once I moved away from full-range drivers, I became much happier with my stereo. I can now play anything I like, at any volume I like.
Chris
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I think there are full range drivers that sound OK they are the minority of the genre but when you find them you’ll be able to build a good speaker
I think you’re completely wasting your time with the idea of putting glue on your speaker you can damp certain modes with glue around the backside of the whizzer near the edge and on the main cone near the edge - which is something I do too.
but it’s a fairly minor improvement
if your driver makes your ears bleed like many of them for me, I recommend to cut your losses, life‘s too short, go find a better driver
I think you’re completely wasting your time with the idea of putting glue on your speaker you can damp certain modes with glue around the backside of the whizzer near the edge and on the main cone near the edge - which is something I do too.
but it’s a fairly minor improvement
if your driver makes your ears bleed like many of them for me, I recommend to cut your losses, life‘s too short, go find a better driver
Yup, bigun hit on much.
I too am thinking 8".
I've been here b4, so i know what I'm getting into this time.
Eq will get you far, many 8's have spiky issues 1-3khz, blow up the manufacturer's freq response.
10 band eq, helps but you probably lose a bit of transparency.
However, lets think about eq.
Since the driver is a few feet off the floor, we have a floor bounce dip 100-200hz, we have baffle step (losing 3-6db bass), and lets add in fletcher munson curve where we like a smiley face on a 10 band eq when listening say 70db.
Screech can be simple frequency modulation distortion (bass modulating voice/highs). I call that gargle. Crossing it over cleans that up (100-200hz), but now you may hear a oddness on drums and bass guitar.
Since off axis is an improvement, it probably has a climbing response, sometimes a small inductor in series can help.
Send me a message and i can dig what i can on that driver.
Larger full range drivers are usually not the flattest, but we are gaining cone area and bass.
Norman
I too am thinking 8".
I've been here b4, so i know what I'm getting into this time.
Eq will get you far, many 8's have spiky issues 1-3khz, blow up the manufacturer's freq response.
10 band eq, helps but you probably lose a bit of transparency.
However, lets think about eq.
Since the driver is a few feet off the floor, we have a floor bounce dip 100-200hz, we have baffle step (losing 3-6db bass), and lets add in fletcher munson curve where we like a smiley face on a 10 band eq when listening say 70db.
Screech can be simple frequency modulation distortion (bass modulating voice/highs). I call that gargle. Crossing it over cleans that up (100-200hz), but now you may hear a oddness on drums and bass guitar.
Since off axis is an improvement, it probably has a climbing response, sometimes a small inductor in series can help.
Send me a message and i can dig what i can on that driver.
Larger full range drivers are usually not the flattest, but we are gaining cone area and bass.
Norman
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I had ordered some foam tape and have it on hand...
These drivers are whizzer-less... on one I've removed it (never liked whizzers) and the other (older model) never had one.
SO.. I'm not sure where to put the foam tape! LOL..
(I actually got it for another set of drivers I'm also experimenting with, which I'll describe below)
EQ-ing and Multi-way:
Ok so I'll come clean..... I've never believed in a "full range driver"...
I just don't think it's possible.
Add a qualifier... "quasi full range" and the like... then sure.
It's just to much to ask of any one driver to be truly full range IMO.
Either just accept it's limitations and just listen..... to a single driver's virtues.....
or go multi way.
For that reason, my overall/eventual project will be multi-way.
BUT using a "wide band" (safer term) as midrange. (what's considered a "full range" driver.
This somewhat honors the concept.... "the music lives in the midrange"...
With some above and below augmentation... as I determine it's nescessary.
That means as little filtering as possible.... but obviously some is needed.
Of course, it's all about which set of compromises you choose....
"Do the least harm" is the goal.
I've already ordered a coil to cut the top around 6k.. (at least as a starting point)..
Looking at the published curves for the driver... it's not to bad till about there.
It's scheduled to arrive on friday.
I've been hoping to get the best out of the driver BEFORE filtering though... and heaven forbid.. EQ.😱
The driver really is very very good... astonishingly so in fact... but for this one annoying aspect..
Hoping to diminish it mechanically, then filter with the aforementioned coil.
I didn't want to muddy up the question with details of my project or even the driver...
There's actually 2 drivers I'm messing with (for wide-band/midrange)
One is the classic/original/vintage Supravox T215 RTF-64... the other, the EV Wolverine LS-8.
The Supravox are VERY rare and hard to come by... and by far, the better driver.
I'm very loathe to start cutting on them or gum them up with stuff that can't be removed.
SO... I'm using the Wolverines to experiment.
I will eventually even have hemp cones for them... and learning by doing various things to them which will most likely carry over.
I can destroy them with impunity.... and so far, have made improvements.
Phase plugs for one.... huge improvement... yet still far from "there"..
Maybe only the filtering will do the trick... but there's still several things to try.
Right now, I've got the Supravox hooked up and listening to them for the first time...
They do SO much so well... I can fall in love... it's really JUST that one annoying aspect..
which I could never live with.
I could just try the coil... and maybe that will be good enough..
But I would like to try some other mechanical mods, and was hoping to benefit from other's experience.... like maybe there's some "sure fire, can't go wrong" improvements one can make?
I've always planned to eventually add a (super?)-tweeter.... though after listening, it's barely needed...
BUT once filtered at the top.. it will likely beccome nescessary.
It lacks the "shimmer and air" of a good tweeter now...
I guess it will be a trade off between top end plus screech... for the need for a tweeter..
Again though, I always expected to use a tweeter... and would still prefer to (at least somewhat) tame the main driver before filtering.....
BTW... it's not the LF gargle...
In fact I'm just shocked how good the bottom is...
Right now... no cap on the main driver (it's in the mail too) so wide open... but with a 15" woofer with a single coil for 75hz roll off..
Just shocked... at how seamless the blend is!!!! how totally clean that region is!!
Ok so I came cleen... 😀
That's the project.. and that's what I'm shooting for..
I hope that helps.. rather than detracts from the question in the OP....
These drivers are whizzer-less... on one I've removed it (never liked whizzers) and the other (older model) never had one.
SO.. I'm not sure where to put the foam tape! LOL..
(I actually got it for another set of drivers I'm also experimenting with, which I'll describe below)
EQ-ing and Multi-way:
Ok so I'll come clean..... I've never believed in a "full range driver"...
I just don't think it's possible.
Add a qualifier... "quasi full range" and the like... then sure.
It's just to much to ask of any one driver to be truly full range IMO.
Either just accept it's limitations and just listen..... to a single driver's virtues.....
or go multi way.
For that reason, my overall/eventual project will be multi-way.
BUT using a "wide band" (safer term) as midrange. (what's considered a "full range" driver.
This somewhat honors the concept.... "the music lives in the midrange"...
With some above and below augmentation... as I determine it's nescessary.
That means as little filtering as possible.... but obviously some is needed.
Of course, it's all about which set of compromises you choose....
"Do the least harm" is the goal.
I've already ordered a coil to cut the top around 6k.. (at least as a starting point)..
Looking at the published curves for the driver... it's not to bad till about there.
It's scheduled to arrive on friday.
I've been hoping to get the best out of the driver BEFORE filtering though... and heaven forbid.. EQ.😱
The driver really is very very good... astonishingly so in fact... but for this one annoying aspect..
Hoping to diminish it mechanically, then filter with the aforementioned coil.
I didn't want to muddy up the question with details of my project or even the driver...
There's actually 2 drivers I'm messing with (for wide-band/midrange)
One is the classic/original/vintage Supravox T215 RTF-64... the other, the EV Wolverine LS-8.
The Supravox are VERY rare and hard to come by... and by far, the better driver.
I'm very loathe to start cutting on them or gum them up with stuff that can't be removed.
SO... I'm using the Wolverines to experiment.
I will eventually even have hemp cones for them... and learning by doing various things to them which will most likely carry over.
I can destroy them with impunity.... and so far, have made improvements.
Phase plugs for one.... huge improvement... yet still far from "there"..
Maybe only the filtering will do the trick... but there's still several things to try.
Right now, I've got the Supravox hooked up and listening to them for the first time...
They do SO much so well... I can fall in love... it's really JUST that one annoying aspect..
which I could never live with.
I could just try the coil... and maybe that will be good enough..
But I would like to try some other mechanical mods, and was hoping to benefit from other's experience.... like maybe there's some "sure fire, can't go wrong" improvements one can make?
I've always planned to eventually add a (super?)-tweeter.... though after listening, it's barely needed...
BUT once filtered at the top.. it will likely beccome nescessary.
It lacks the "shimmer and air" of a good tweeter now...
I guess it will be a trade off between top end plus screech... for the need for a tweeter..
Again though, I always expected to use a tweeter... and would still prefer to (at least somewhat) tame the main driver before filtering.....
BTW... it's not the LF gargle...
In fact I'm just shocked how good the bottom is...
Right now... no cap on the main driver (it's in the mail too) so wide open... but with a 15" woofer with a single coil for 75hz roll off..
Just shocked... at how seamless the blend is!!!! how totally clean that region is!!
Ok so I came cleen... 😀
That's the project.. and that's what I'm shooting for..
I hope that helps.. rather than detracts from the question in the OP....
Planet 10's phase plugs worked great on my FE206 ES-R drivers. I was scared to death that I'd ruin them but it really cut down on the harshness and opened up the treble.
I wouldn't hesitate using the phase plugs on any of the Fostex 8" drivers with a whizzer cone.
I wouldn't hesitate using the phase plugs on any of the Fostex 8" drivers with a whizzer cone.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I've been a full range single cone guy for a decade now (multi way lives in my HT) and have found that with careful choice you can go an awful long way with this solution. For me, the optimal is a large driver. My main listening space uses an Audio Nirvana 15" full range so I get real bass, and treble is extended and well dispersed (I hear to 15kHz at best). I have some MA A10.3's that have some potential but I'm not sure I like the metal cones as much - jury is out.
But, your comment reminds me of something important. I've accepted the compromises that full range imposes and that makes it hard to move to multi-way because I have to re-learn a new set. You have made me curious though. I'm thinking about trying a multi-way. I listen in mono with a single speaker because of how I want my listening space and because I prefer it overall. The phase coherency required for stereo reproduction is not a constraint that I face. Perhaps, multi-way with XO is worth investigating. If I do, there's no half-way house to this, I will be looking for at least 3 if not 4 drivers with large cones for large wavelengths and all of them with low distortion. Such a project will have to be based off an existing proven design that I can copy because the necessary skill and experience needed to design a high performance 3 or 4-way would require another decade of work that I'm not willing to do.
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