This is a sequel to my question about obtaining 20 Hz - 20 KHz from a two way design...
If you are starting with a clean slate and you can pick your two way speaker complement based on the most non intrusive crossover point, what would that point be? This is a more general question... I am very well aware that multiple priorities will intervene before a suitable compromise is established.
For example, a TD15H + Manger/JXR6 HD/B&G RD-75 can be crossed over < 400 Hz, but this bothers me as I know that this frequency range is bang in the center of fundamental tones.
I am more comfortable with a large driver handling fundamental frequencies (20 Hz - 800+Hz) as I have experienced this sound and appreciate the scale and authority it demonstrates, even at the lowest volume. However, I have not heard the alternative...
And then there is the full range + super tweeter option like the Hammer Dynamics/Zu Audio offerings...
So here is the question again... If you could pick a crossover point and design your two way speakers around it, what would it be?
I am interested in a general discussion, but all this research is going towards finding the ultimate driver combination for a two way / 20 Hz - 20 KHz / 105 dB average - 115 dB peaks capable system.
If you are starting with a clean slate and you can pick your two way speaker complement based on the most non intrusive crossover point, what would that point be? This is a more general question... I am very well aware that multiple priorities will intervene before a suitable compromise is established.
For example, a TD15H + Manger/JXR6 HD/B&G RD-75 can be crossed over < 400 Hz, but this bothers me as I know that this frequency range is bang in the center of fundamental tones.
I am more comfortable with a large driver handling fundamental frequencies (20 Hz - 800+Hz) as I have experienced this sound and appreciate the scale and authority it demonstrates, even at the lowest volume. However, I have not heard the alternative...
And then there is the full range + super tweeter option like the Hammer Dynamics/Zu Audio offerings...
So here is the question again... If you could pick a crossover point and design your two way speakers around it, what would it be?
I am interested in a general discussion, but all this research is going towards finding the ultimate driver combination for a two way / 20 Hz - 20 KHz / 105 dB average - 115 dB peaks capable system.
I think there will be no correct answer to that question.
You can define the less obstructive crossover point then go find the most suitable drivers for that crossover point, or you can be flexible with the crossover point and find the "suitable" drivers first. At the end, you have to compare to find out which one is your best.
Imo, the later is the most logical way to go because choosing the drivers itself is already difficult with your criteria. And, about crossing at the critical point, yes, it will be a problem if the crossover is of no good quality. But if you do it carefully and try your best, I can see big chance to survive.
You have to prepare for yourself some alternatives. For example, alternative 1 will use this driver and this driver with possible crossover point from this to this, alternative 2 will use that driver and that driver with possible crossover point from that to that. Then anyone who has experience with those drivers may chim in and give their opinion about the best way to handle the drivers.
you can cross anywhere you like
there is no universal ideal xo point
you main issue is the two very different drivers
that is your problem
but do you really need 20hz
maybe you should use a lighter coned woofer with shorter Xmax
and maybe forget about playing loud 😉
If you really want it to go very low and have a low cross-over point for the mid band driver , you will have to make it a 3 way ! That makes the mid driver smaller and that might be a good thing !
Driver mix is never an easy thing to do though you could go for successful combinations that have already worked. Could vary from person to person.
Cheers.
Driver mix is never an easy thing to do though you could go for successful combinations that have already worked. Could vary from person to person.
Cheers.
Here's one I did last year.
It's -3 dB at 33 Hz and 18kHZ crossed over at 450 Hz. I would have liked it lower, but it just worked out better at 450.
Best Regards,
TerryO
It's -3 dB at 33 Hz and 18kHZ crossed over at 450 Hz. I would have liked it lower, but it just worked out better at 450.
Best Regards,
TerryO
TerryO that is a very neat build! What kind of SPL does it deliver, and what is the sensitivity of the system?
Thanks.
I don't really know what SPL level it will deliver, although it does give a feeling of rather unlimited dynamic reserves, a lot like horns have. The sensitivity isn't so hot I think, the impedance is somewhere around 12 ohms, so tubes with O'netic Output Transformers (w/ custom 12 ohm taps) would probably be a better fit than SS amplification.
They were generally well received at last Summer's Vancouver Island DIY Fest, and that's one tough crowd, believe me!
The week after the fest they took 1st place in the 2-way division at "The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest."
Best Regards,
TerryO
The upper drivers were wired series/parallel.
The crossover is a series crossover with a first order low pass and second order hi-pass. I used BiPolar electrolytic caps with Dayton poly bi-pass caps and PE inductors.
Total cost for everything was around $81.00, IIRC. However that doesn't include the custom "APTS" treatment.
😀
Best Regards,
TerryO
800Hz is a practical point for some kinds of drivers. It is doable, and much better than some of the higher frequencies usually chosen, IMO.
This is actually close to a good place to cross over, the schroeder frequency. Different for each room, sensitivity to group delay is less down here and room effects tend to dominate. You can get away with more, with multiple drivers reducing the chance of error.
For a wide frequency 2-way, you have to decide whether you are a midrange lover or a bass lover 😀
You are a bass lover, so the critical bass range is better covered by one single woofer (a-la Econowave).
On the other hand, Dave is a kind of midrange lover, so the critical midrange is handled by a single driver. Anchoring a fullrange (or horn) with subwoofer at 150-350 is never easy because the competition with transmission line is very tight.
Very good low distortion midrange is cheaper and easier to find than very good low distortion big woofer. That's why I prefer the midrange be handled by a good stuff. If I want bass, I prefer a three-way than the Econowave alike, because big woofers that I have heard have terrible midrange distortion. They are good to be listened from a distance. But for all-day living room listening, my wife will complain before me.
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I don't care what the actual crossover point in a 2-way is as long as we're talking about an FIR 110+db/octave crossover. Crossovers like this don't seem to "present" themselves like most analog crossovers do.
Of course, matching directivity index is a must.
Of course, matching directivity index is a must.
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No, well yes, but no. I'd chose perfection down to 60Hz then nothing, 8 out of 10 times over 20Hz at any cost. FWIW my 15" Eminence drivers do cut off at 60Hz.
The range I lust after the most in a system is around 100-400Hz. I'm not saying it is the most critical but it certainly seems to lack in many a system. Fortunately, a lot can be done and this region is not that critical of a crossover, IMO.
BTW, I share a passion for the Fostex FE108Esigma, with Dave.
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Thanks everyone...
Just to explain why I want extension down to 20 Hz... In a studio situation where there is a great deal of unwanted subsonic information, we tend to roll off the bass just to be safe... If we could hear exactly what is going on down there, we will be able to make better mix decisions...
If I were building a speaker for my home, I might be more than satisfied with 60 Hz + room gain...
Watching this thread...
Just to explain why I want extension down to 20 Hz... In a studio situation where there is a great deal of unwanted subsonic information, we tend to roll off the bass just to be safe... If we could hear exactly what is going on down there, we will be able to make better mix decisions...
If I were building a speaker for my home, I might be more than satisfied with 60 Hz + room gain...
Watching this thread...
Hi,
Well, if drivers pose no limits, I would say either very low or very high (<150Hz or > 10KHz), however drivers that really manage this are rare.
If we have to go somewhere inbetween, I would long and hard on the hearing physiology and psychology and select a frequency that would carry a low hearing acuity, based on sensitivity to spl variations, phaseshift and group delay.
At the same time, to go down to 20Hz is really subwoofer territory, so build a good 2-Way and a well integrated sub...
Ciao T
Well, if drivers pose no limits, I would say either very low or very high (<150Hz or > 10KHz), however drivers that really manage this are rare.
If we have to go somewhere inbetween, I would long and hard on the hearing physiology and psychology and select a frequency that would carry a low hearing acuity, based on sensitivity to spl variations, phaseshift and group delay.
At the same time, to go down to 20Hz is really subwoofer territory, so build a good 2-Way and a well integrated sub...
Ciao T
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