Hi,
I watched a video today from Thomas and Stereo on Youtube and he mentioned something about transformers that I don't understand.
He said that regular transformers have more punch than toroidal transformers. I'm a beginner hobbyist but want to know other opinions.
Do toroidal transformers make music less "punchy" than regular transformers?
Thanks,
Dan.
I watched a video today from Thomas and Stereo on Youtube and he mentioned something about transformers that I don't understand.
He said that regular transformers have more punch than toroidal transformers. I'm a beginner hobbyist but want to know other opinions.
Do toroidal transformers make music less "punchy" than regular transformers?
Thanks,
Dan.
I don't notice that with my builds... In fact, I'd say it's a lot tighter than the Hammond EI I've used before.
As long as that sort of opinions aren't backed up by facts or figures, they can - and should! - be safely ignored.
Jan
Jan
Indeed, those youtube "authorities" and their endless "opinions" and suggestions give me gas. 
Most who have experimented with power supplies would know that transformers sound different from each other, just as caps or diodes do.
All the R-cores share a similar signature ime but i would not get as far as generalising for other core types.
EI cores seem to exhibit the the largest sonic variations. Some are great, others intolerable. Perhaps core material varies a lot with EI.
Toroids are quite a bit more consistent, but again there us a large range of perceived quality.
An electrostatic screen seems to help, even if left unconnected. Wire and insulating materials add more variables.
I would not make a blank statement that EI are better than toroids.
Sadly, unlike capacitors, there is hardly any empirical knowledge regarding transformer sound in the public domain.
Some time ago i ordered a power transformer on an AMCC core. Did not like the result. Others have tried the same with much happier conclusions, so perhaps insulation materials, airgap and the winding scheme may be decisive factors.
All the R-cores share a similar signature ime but i would not get as far as generalising for other core types.
EI cores seem to exhibit the the largest sonic variations. Some are great, others intolerable. Perhaps core material varies a lot with EI.
Toroids are quite a bit more consistent, but again there us a large range of perceived quality.
An electrostatic screen seems to help, even if left unconnected. Wire and insulating materials add more variables.
I would not make a blank statement that EI are better than toroids.
Sadly, unlike capacitors, there is hardly any empirical knowledge regarding transformer sound in the public domain.
Some time ago i ordered a power transformer on an AMCC core. Did not like the result. Others have tried the same with much happier conclusions, so perhaps insulation materials, airgap and the winding scheme may be decisive factors.
I just tried a pair of Antek "tube" series power toroid for the first time on my "experimenter" monoblocks, and was very pleased. Secondary voltages under load were spot on at 120VAC line voltage. The circuit draws 150mA and the Antek barely got warm. A similar Hammond for twice the money gets pretty hot. The sound was clean and tight, lots of current in reserve. My wife even stuck her head in the listening room door and commented on how much better it sounded.
Good comment, I completely agree about the differences in power trannies. I recently built some PP monoblocks for a friend. Thought I'd try some Hammonds, and was not pleased with the sound. Managed to dig out some similarly-rated Stancors I had in the shed and they made a huge difference. They stayed on the amps. I wish it was just a matter of "same rating, same sound," but I have found EI power trannies to be highly variable in the sound they produce. I don't know why either.
So far, highly personal opinions. Take your chances ...
Just waiting for someone who would be able to explain which specs to be aware of when selecting a xformer for a specific application.
Not holding my breath ...
Jan
Just waiting for someone who would be able to explain which specs to be aware of when selecting a xformer for a specific application.
Not holding my breath ...
Jan
No, I wouldn't hold my breath either, since it's very difficult to quantify a lot of people's perceptions of sonic differences. But 30 years of DIY experience have taught me that there are a lot of things that can't necessarily be measured; that selection of components can make or break a project in terms of achieving the the desired sonic results; and that each DIYer has to experiment to his or her own satisfaction.
Unfortunately, experimenting gets expensive, too expensive for some DIYers. The experience of those who have been able to experiment over the years is at least worth considering.
Before I decide to "unwatch" this thread, as I'm known to do whenever they become boring or rediculous, I have to state that it's not about some dreamed-up transformer "sound".
That is basically a result of the amplifier's design.
As far as transformers go, their performance is primarily due to their ability to produce the voltages needed, and their regulation properties. - how well they maintain their voltages under load/no-load conditions.
And not about what kind of core they have.
So that guy in the video talks nonsense, and like many others on yourtube, wants to become a celebrity to boost his own self-image for whatever reason.
That is basically a result of the amplifier's design.
As far as transformers go, their performance is primarily due to their ability to produce the voltages needed, and their regulation properties. - how well they maintain their voltages under load/no-load conditions.
And not about what kind of core they have.
So that guy in the video talks nonsense, and like many others on yourtube, wants to become a celebrity to boost his own self-image for whatever reason.
And that's why after decades of having to do professional servicing, along with the prior training it requires, I find a lot of nonsense being pushed around the internet and touted as fact.
I suppose this debate is about power transformers, not output transformers. There are many other variables: type of rectifier (tube, Schottky, SiC etc.), filter capacitors, Graetz vs. full wave. Who can try all options?
This list is pretty much compulsory to investigate. And you have missed the all important chokes. Si vs Amorph vs Nano. C-core vs dbl C-core vs EI. Single bobin vs dual. Vertical layering vs horisontal. Not to mention the branded stuff 🙂
But why deflect when this thread is about transformers?
Does the amplified music signal actually crawl its way up the filter chain through the chokes, resistors, past the diodes, etc. and back again to be affected by the transformer? I could see how the quality of the last filter capacitor in the filter chain could affect the sound as the music clearly goes right through that capacitor. But the power transformer all the way on the other side of the diodes? Cmon, really? I don't see how. Is this thread much like threads that advertise a $14,000 power cord?
Sure an underrated transformer can be saggy, but that's easily remedied, and once it's sized right the voltage is stiff, any transformer difference would be a challenge to hear when both are sized properly. I suspect the author of this video might be hearing a saggy PS vs a stiff one then blaming it on the transformers topology, rather than the fact that its simply an undersized transformer being compared to a correctly sized one for the job.
Sure an underrated transformer can be saggy, but that's easily remedied, and once it's sized right the voltage is stiff, any transformer difference would be a challenge to hear when both are sized properly. I suspect the author of this video might be hearing a saggy PS vs a stiff one then blaming it on the transformers topology, rather than the fact that its simply an undersized transformer being compared to a correctly sized one for the job.
That's correct.
A minimal "sag" helps to control the amp's ability to perform as it should.
And that's what the main filters help with - to a point, as does the capability of the wiring from the PS.
To-a-point......
Those investing in rediculous amounts of filtering capacity introduce a new "issue" to the mix - power-on surges, and the need for additional circuitry like surge-eliminators... complicating the amp design.
There is a reasonable and happy compromise to every design, and "brute force" filtering is not always the answer.
And the usual BS from the few who imagine they can hear the difference between everything, with zero proof.
Is it BS to claim that an over spec'd toroid power transformer made my amps sound better than a marginally spec'd EI transformer? It's always a bit funny to me that people brush off "subjective" listening judgements just because one can't provide the "proof." Here in this very thread, folks are saying things like, "The power tranny can't POSSIBLY make a difference in the sound...UNLESS it's poorly wound/regulated/shielded/spec'd etc." So if it's common knowledge that the quality of the power transformer CAN make a difference in how the amp performs, why isn't it okay to say, "Transformer X made my amp sound better than Transformer Y," even if I can't provide minute electronic details to confirm that?
Then we get to "if the specs are the same it doesn't matter." But there are specs and there are specs. It's hardly uncommon for two things that are "spec'd" the same to differ in the quality of performance.
TBH My comment pertained to output transformers. The only difference I "hear" between EI and Toroidal is the EI coils hum and buzz. The Hammond in my MA-1-KT88 amp sounds like a pad transformer! The toroids don't 🙂
Not a clue if power transformers affect the sound, but I'm highly skeptical. That said, toroids have some in-rush current issues and aren't the paragon of zero magnetic fields that some would have you believe. Wander around one with an H-field probe some time. They have their place but, like most engineering choices, implementation and quality will determine your results.