split from budget vs expensive tweeters ***
Personally I would stay away from first order crossovers, and don't have a lot of experience implementing them, so will only say that clearly they would require a very robust low end of any tweeter, and that would probably be my first consideration. Beyond that I'll have to defer to others who have done more first order crossovers in standard midwoofer/tweeter two ways.
True Troels says it handles <2hhz well, and he know's what he's doing. That said, his opinion is not the last word on everything, and there are multiple independent measurements that show distortion taking a big jump as you move below 3khz (albeit; from great to merely average). I have a suspicion when people say that about this tweeter, they mean 'handles it well for a 3/4" tweeter, better than expected', not 'handles it well compared to the better 1" tweeters', but that's just my guess.
If you've modeled it and it looks like there won't be any issues, give it a shot and see, only way to find out! If it sounds strained though, I'd definitely try steeper slopes around 2.5khz before blaming the tweeter.
I don't put a lot of faith in PE reviews either; some are right spot on; others just first timers that are excited but don't understand enough to have an opinion based on theory.
First order will work but only on some tweeters and usually only when used with a smaller mid/woofer that is crossed higher. I always prefer 1st order myself when I can get away with it. What do I do? Start with first order and experiment. I have literally boxes full of capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. and a whole lot of higher quality clip leads. I start with text book component values but I do this based on the impedance curve of the driver; not the stated OEM "static" impedance value on the spec. sheet. I usually start with a smaller value capacitor then clip lead in parallel small values adding slowly to the capacitance value. I listen to very familiar recordings for subtle differences. Then; I try 2nd order with some inductor value that would give me a crossover frequency in the "neighborhood" of what I think I want. Then; I repeat with the capacitors, and so on. NOT for everyone I agree and understand. Remember; I am retired and have been doing this since before I could legally drive so 50+ years gives me an intuition about where to start and how to proceed.
Those of you with sophisticated test and measurement tools, simulation hardware and software; good; it helps MANY people zero in on X/O design MUCH FASTER. For me personally; I PREFER to dabble about, experiment and tweak to my heart's content!
I really like it when a 3rd party has tested and evaluated a driver I am interested in. This helps confirm the OEM spec. sheet or shows updates; corrections, etc.
I don't plan on starting any new projects in the immediate future; I haven't finished my 3 1/2 way yet. But hey; NOW I have a calibrated mic and stand, and REW software, etc. so I can get some measurements. I am having problems getting it all sorted out so anyone ELSE out there with REW experience; please read over my thread and give me some pointers, quick tips, short cuts, etc. I can't get the SPL to calibrate and my sweep measurements ALWAYS say the level is WAY lower than expected so I am obviously overlooking something or doing something wrong.
If you want "FOOL PROOF"; copy a successful design from a known DIY designer. I use their knowledge and ideas but I have NEVER copied anyone's design in my entire life!
Cheers; keep it going...
First order will work but only on some tweeters and usually only when used with a smaller mid/woofer that is crossed higher. I always prefer 1st order myself when I can get away with it. What do I do? Start with first order and experiment. I have literally boxes full of capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. and a whole lot of higher quality clip leads. I start with text book component values but I do this based on the impedance curve of the driver; not the stated OEM "static" impedance value on the spec. sheet. I usually start with a smaller value capacitor then clip lead in parallel small values adding slowly to the capacitance value. I listen to very familiar recordings for subtle differences. Then; I try 2nd order with some inductor value that would give me a crossover frequency in the "neighborhood" of what I think I want. Then; I repeat with the capacitors, and so on. NOT for everyone I agree and understand. Remember; I am retired and have been doing this since before I could legally drive so 50+ years gives me an intuition about where to start and how to proceed.
Those of you with sophisticated test and measurement tools, simulation hardware and software; good; it helps MANY people zero in on X/O design MUCH FASTER. For me personally; I PREFER to dabble about, experiment and tweak to my heart's content!
I really like it when a 3rd party has tested and evaluated a driver I am interested in. This helps confirm the OEM spec. sheet or shows updates; corrections, etc.
I don't plan on starting any new projects in the immediate future; I haven't finished my 3 1/2 way yet. But hey; NOW I have a calibrated mic and stand, and REW software, etc. so I can get some measurements. I am having problems getting it all sorted out so anyone ELSE out there with REW experience; please read over my thread and give me some pointers, quick tips, short cuts, etc. I can't get the SPL to calibrate and my sweep measurements ALWAYS say the level is WAY lower than expected so I am obviously overlooking something or doing something wrong.
If you want "FOOL PROOF"; copy a successful design from a known DIY designer. I use their knowledge and ideas but I have NEVER copied anyone's design in my entire life!
Cheers; keep it going...
Wize words guys as for me it is a firt time, so I read a lot about people experience.
I'm certainly too much optimistic with first order and great chance it ends with a 2nd LR slope...As 4 k hz is certainly not high enough cut-off if I look at 2,5 octaves above and below the XO for a correct overlapping.... and the Fs below 3 octaves minimum of the cut off. Which is helping is the 3'' mid has a limited powerhandling if I understood...95 db spl max before heavy distorsion, so casual listening speaker and low spl, hence the idea of first order...
Sim helps me to see on screen the not well understood theory. Horizontal spacing with 1st order seems difficult to set up with no experience measurement skill too...as lobying and vertical directivity... Will be much better with the drivers both measured in room for more concrete sim... first I sim for doability before droping few monney. I wanted a horn for the 3'' but was a bad idea for a first diy and also because the driver is too weak alone to be horned without big skill and experience despite good advices given...alas.
I'm also use my ears and proceed like Oldspkeakerguy when I set up piwersupply and decoupling on hifi devices... tune it to your ears school too, as far I'm concernd.
I'm certainly too much optimistic with first order and great chance it ends with a 2nd LR slope...As 4 k hz is certainly not high enough cut-off if I look at 2,5 octaves above and below the XO for a correct overlapping.... and the Fs below 3 octaves minimum of the cut off. Which is helping is the 3'' mid has a limited powerhandling if I understood...95 db spl max before heavy distorsion, so casual listening speaker and low spl, hence the idea of first order...
Sim helps me to see on screen the not well understood theory. Horizontal spacing with 1st order seems difficult to set up with no experience measurement skill too...as lobying and vertical directivity... Will be much better with the drivers both measured in room for more concrete sim... first I sim for doability before droping few monney. I wanted a horn for the 3'' but was a bad idea for a first diy and also because the driver is too weak alone to be horned without big skill and experience despite good advices given...alas.
I'm also use my ears and proceed like Oldspkeakerguy when I set up piwersupply and decoupling on hifi devices... tune it to your ears school too, as far I'm concernd.
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Well, the last 4 of 5 of my designs were 2nd order or higher; 1 was 3rd order on the tweeter. It IS RARE when you can get away with 1st order on a tweeter. When you can though; it is "special" when there is an ideal blend to the mid...
As I said; I experiment quite a bit. Many people are put off by this and want to stick strictly with pure theory and what the sims, etc. show. For me; that takes all of the fun out of it! MOST of my X/O's are NOT standard. Pure LR, Butterworth, Bessel, etc.? No, not usually for me. Most of the time my X/O's are custom and don't match any text book ideal. But, when others hear the results they are usually very agreeable that I have done a good job of getting the drivers all with a well balanced blend or "voicing" as some people call it.
Cheers!
As I said; I experiment quite a bit. Many people are put off by this and want to stick strictly with pure theory and what the sims, etc. show. For me; that takes all of the fun out of it! MOST of my X/O's are NOT standard. Pure LR, Butterworth, Bessel, etc.? No, not usually for me. Most of the time my X/O's are custom and don't match any text book ideal. But, when others hear the results they are usually very agreeable that I have done a good job of getting the drivers all with a well balanced blend or "voicing" as some people call it.
Cheers!
Do you know that electrical slope means almost nothing in a crossover, apart maybe for power handling? What really matters is the acoustical slope.
And if you want to speak about this you should start an appropriate thread, you have hijacket this one.
Ralf
And if you want to speak about this you should start an appropriate thread, you have hijacket this one.
Ralf
Well, I don't mind going slightly off topic. We all learn something from each other that way. Sometimes people just aren't exactly sure how to ask the "right" question that gets them the answer they are really looking for. That's how these threads sometimes stray off course. Then, of course, there are many newer DIYers still trying to get ideas and ramp up the learning curve quickly. Some of us are true experts; most of us fall somewhere in between beginners and experts.
I haven't looked at the exact specs just yet. If you have a 1st order on the woofer or midbass and a 3rd order on the tweeter; it is the same as 2nd order and 2nd order as far as phase/polarity. 180 degrees out of phase requires reversing the polarity on one driver; usually the tweeter. If you do a search for X/O phase and polarity; you will discover this for yourself.
I did a very similar project in the early 1990's with nearly identical drivers and had VERY good results for sure!
I did a very similar project in the early 1990's with nearly identical drivers and had VERY good results for sure!
This is simply not true. What matters is the acoustical slope, and not the electrical slope. They coincide only for ideal drivers (flat FR and impedance). But mostly the electrical slope will add to a natural slope of the driver.
My last few crossovers used mostly LR4 slopes, and I can obtain them with a 2nd order crossover for the mid and a 2nd or better 3rd order crossover for the tweeter.
Ralf
All else being equal it IS true. Electrically speaking it is 180 degrees out of phase. I never myself worry about such things; you are absolutely right that it is the combination of electrical and acoustical BOTH that determine the characteristics of the X/O.
You are wrong at not worrying The electrical component is only a part of the equation, and thus is not the only thing that determines the phase shift. See the following link for an example of a LR4 crossover where both the LP and HP filters are 2nd order electrical. In your thinking the drivers should be 180 degree apart, while in reality they are 360 degree apart, and thus connected with the same polarity, summing correctly at the crossover frequency.
Zaph|Audio - ZA-SR71
Ralf
Zaph|Audio - ZA-SR71
Ralf
CALM DOWN! I have been doing this for OVER 50 years! I know what I'm doing and talking about! You are NOT helping those that have yet to find full experience! I mean I don't worry about it because I know what to do to get the proper results. You are insulting people that don't yet know what they are doing! BACK OFF ON YOUR BAD ATTITUDE!
Were some posts deleted in this thread? I don't think I see the confrontational or insulting post this is referring to, unless I'm reading the previous post very differently than you are?
Ok, so maybe I over reacted. The point is; I am seeing a trend of insulting remarks and talking down to those asking innocent, honest questions. These seem to me to be overly aggressive needlessly. Sorry if I went to far; we are ALL here to learn from each other; I feel it should be in a positive and supporting manner; not aggressive or insulting. Sometimes it's just a misunderstanding due to language; newer DIYers just don't always know exactly what question to ask or they ask it in the wrong way.
Hello Morbo,
Acording your culture, backround, education, country, some inputs can be dry for some.,From my point Gerldfino should have add some emoticons. I know it because I can be very direct and punchy myself without thinking to bad. For some it's never bad to say frankly the things and it can be somewhere a respectfull behavior according your culture/education but in some country as US where the content is naturally free - somewhere in the constitution & that is great- the form and behavior of the talking is very important I observed. The few I know from canadians I met abroad, most are very open and peacefull, so don't see problems where another strange could imagine one. That + Internet and not seing the face of the guy can be confusing + the feeling of the day, the age of the guy, etc. I don't think Oldsprguy nore Geraldfino to be non nice people, quite the opposit : nice & helpfull. Sometimes there are dishonest people and it has to be said and I'm the first to shot if. But both guys are cool... at least according my feeling. I'm thankfull btw by all the good help provided there.
Sorry for the disgress and btw as I'm feeling a part of it as I talked a lot here the post is also a form of sorry for this, btw thank you AllenB to have splitted the thread towards a usefull new thread .
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Then this thread could also turn towards which not expensive tweeters are known for a first order slope - we now the defaults and it is said- ?
Maybe not the most perfect filter, but it is in the spirit of something cheap and enjoyable if we accept not to cut in 4 each hertz ! The first speaker i enjoyed when child was the one of my older brother : a two way from jensen with a cap and no coil nore resistor, lol... I enjoyed at 6 or 7 the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Stones, Supertramp... I found it nice and certainly catched the hifi disease since!
Not so far away, Aldason member testimonied with a monitor + bass sub with a Betsy FR for the mid without Low pass and iirc a first order with the tweet and his spouse liked it a lot : I value such testimonial a lot and I think the former thread is in the spirit : pleasure can come from smart + cheap but knowledge behind... And btw +10 for the SB26 STAC and I'm sure there are equivalent perhaps in prce for 1st order slope !
I start with this one for the first purpose : what about this one -that said for myself, cheap is below 50 bucks/euros- : Peerless by Tymphany 810921 Peerless 1″ tweeter | Europe audio
My basic understanding is the cut off has always to be minimum 3 octaves below the cut off and the resonant frequency Fs of the tweeter for its safe. But the slow slope makes it not easy to spl match the mid driver ?
Maybe not the most perfect filter, but it is in the spirit of something cheap and enjoyable if we accept not to cut in 4 each hertz ! The first speaker i enjoyed when child was the one of my older brother : a two way from jensen with a cap and no coil nore resistor, lol... I enjoyed at 6 or 7 the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Stones, Supertramp... I found it nice and certainly catched the hifi disease since!
Not so far away, Aldason member testimonied with a monitor + bass sub with a Betsy FR for the mid without Low pass and iirc a first order with the tweet and his spouse liked it a lot : I value such testimonial a lot and I think the former thread is in the spirit : pleasure can come from smart + cheap but knowledge behind... And btw +10 for the SB26 STAC and I'm sure there are equivalent perhaps in prce for 1st order slope !
I start with this one for the first purpose : what about this one -that said for myself, cheap is below 50 bucks/euros- : Peerless by Tymphany 810921 Peerless 1″ tweeter | Europe audio
My basic understanding is the cut off has always to be minimum 3 octaves below the cut off and the resonant frequency Fs of the tweeter for its safe. But the slow slope makes it not easy to spl match the mid driver ?
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In this World everything we do is burdened with compromises. Knowing that one has to choose a compromise one likes most. First order crossovers are great but very demanding when it comes to drivers, especially to tweeters. D’Appolito as long he was running his company he used only first order crossovers in his designs. Now, with D’Appolito gone his company uses higher order crossovers with cheaper drivers. Lower costs for sure and possibly higher profits. At least for now.
The compromise I prefer is to mix active and passive crossovers. The lowest frequencies are covered by active servo sub. Another active crossover separates woofers from mid-high range. I favour fourth order phase linear Bessel here. The trick is to choose crossover frequency sufficiently above tweeter’s Fs. Crossover between midrange and a tweeter is first order passive cutting above 4kHz. This means that midrange has to be high quality driver extending well beyond 10kHz. Luckily, there are a few 4 to 5” drivers with powerful motors and sufficiently small cone mass to get there. That’s the compromise I favour and as I build my own amps and crossovers it’s not that expensive.
Just staying with tweeters there is another problem with them, irrespective if it is a dome or ribbon or planar its area is small and in a large room this deficiency can be heard. There are solutions to that as well as more expensive alternatives such as electrostatics, plasma or mbl. Nevertheless, whatever solution one prefers it’s still burdened with compromises including wallet size limitations.
In the end we need audio electronics to enjoy music and a lot of people including musicians and most women are happy with pretty average audio system quality not to say lousy quality. At the same time one should realize that enjoying all that phase linearity etc one should put ones head in a vice in the room's sweet spot. And still it won't be perfect. OK, we strive for perfection and that makes progress possible but still one should not overdo and find time to enjoy it. I think that's the motto of Oldspkrguy.
Cheers,
The compromise I prefer is to mix active and passive crossovers. The lowest frequencies are covered by active servo sub. Another active crossover separates woofers from mid-high range. I favour fourth order phase linear Bessel here. The trick is to choose crossover frequency sufficiently above tweeter’s Fs. Crossover between midrange and a tweeter is first order passive cutting above 4kHz. This means that midrange has to be high quality driver extending well beyond 10kHz. Luckily, there are a few 4 to 5” drivers with powerful motors and sufficiently small cone mass to get there. That’s the compromise I favour and as I build my own amps and crossovers it’s not that expensive.
Just staying with tweeters there is another problem with them, irrespective if it is a dome or ribbon or planar its area is small and in a large room this deficiency can be heard. There are solutions to that as well as more expensive alternatives such as electrostatics, plasma or mbl. Nevertheless, whatever solution one prefers it’s still burdened with compromises including wallet size limitations.
In the end we need audio electronics to enjoy music and a lot of people including musicians and most women are happy with pretty average audio system quality not to say lousy quality. At the same time one should realize that enjoying all that phase linearity etc one should put ones head in a vice in the room's sweet spot. And still it won't be perfect. OK, we strive for perfection and that makes progress possible but still one should not overdo and find time to enjoy it. I think that's the motto of Oldspkrguy.
Cheers,
that"s funny because I am considering the esl path as well (off course great ESL 62 or ML). Although the top octave seems always a problem because physics laws. At least for the youngest of us.
Horns are attractiv because the macro dynamic and dynamic at last (imho also due to the lack of esl in the tp octave or the behavior of it in the room.
i'm very agree about the hybrid approach because most of dsp are nt as good as well developed dacs: it harms lees or not in the bass, good news 🙂
If the monney I have today will follow the experience and taste I just look towards the big topline Maggie tweeter or exotic plasma tweets.
Only problem, else that the Q/P, is what a recent thread about trebles and listeners age is pointing out : passive network are difficult for long term listening if you are in a transition age with your ears : aging ! There active/DSP is winning and the treble unot should support hard EQ ! Super bullet tweeter or CD à la Beyma (CPF 22) or JBLs' ????
That's a crazy hobby : you spend as much time to listen to music that understanding how to reproduce it at home, then when you understand few things your ears lost some of their acuracy, lol ! Sad...
Horns are attractiv because the macro dynamic and dynamic at last (imho also due to the lack of esl in the tp octave or the behavior of it in the room.
i'm very agree about the hybrid approach because most of dsp are nt as good as well developed dacs: it harms lees or not in the bass, good news 🙂
If the monney I have today will follow the experience and taste I just look towards the big topline Maggie tweeter or exotic plasma tweets.
Only problem, else that the Q/P, is what a recent thread about trebles and listeners age is pointing out : passive network are difficult for long term listening if you are in a transition age with your ears : aging ! There active/DSP is winning and the treble unot should support hard EQ ! Super bullet tweeter or CD à la Beyma (CPF 22) or JBLs' ????
That's a crazy hobby : you spend as much time to listen to music that understanding how to reproduce it at home, then when you understand few things your ears lost some of their acuracy, lol ! Sad...