Hi,
Many years ago I have build a loudspeakers with these speakers:
//
Tweeter: Visaton KE25SC (8 ohm) in ceramic
Midrange Visaton DSM 50 FFL (8 ohm)
Woofer: Monacor SPH250KE (kevlar)
//
after some crossover update and many measurements, now I'am happy with the final result and I think will stay with me for several years (hopefully for life).
In the next years I I plan to design more speakers for another system but more expensive , and for this reason I should choose higher level speakers.
About the woofer and midrange I think to be in the right way with: Seas L26RFX/P (8 ohm) (woofer) and Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 (8 ohm) (midrange).
Also I have never heard of them being fairly well-known brands I hope it is a good choice.
Instead, the most difficult choice seems to be the tweeter.
This is because I would like something better than the good Visaton KE25SC, and the choice does not seem easy, since few tweeters are 8 0hm.
So I was thinking of choosing either the Mundorf-AMT19CM1.1C or the Morel Supreme ST 1048, and I am wondering which one is the better choice.
Someone have has any experience with these tweeters ?
Which one do you recommend ?
Thank you !!
Many years ago I have build a loudspeakers with these speakers:
//
Tweeter: Visaton KE25SC (8 ohm) in ceramic
Midrange Visaton DSM 50 FFL (8 ohm)
Woofer: Monacor SPH250KE (kevlar)
//
after some crossover update and many measurements, now I'am happy with the final result and I think will stay with me for several years (hopefully for life).
In the next years I I plan to design more speakers for another system but more expensive , and for this reason I should choose higher level speakers.
About the woofer and midrange I think to be in the right way with: Seas L26RFX/P (8 ohm) (woofer) and Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 (8 ohm) (midrange).
Also I have never heard of them being fairly well-known brands I hope it is a good choice.
Instead, the most difficult choice seems to be the tweeter.
This is because I would like something better than the good Visaton KE25SC, and the choice does not seem easy, since few tweeters are 8 0hm.
So I was thinking of choosing either the Mundorf-AMT19CM1.1C or the Morel Supreme ST 1048, and I am wondering which one is the better choice.
Someone have has any experience with these tweeters ?
Which one do you recommend ?
Thank you !!
12mu is definitely good choice. L26 is good as well though I would not use it with l26.
Why 8hm tweeter, what is the reasoning?
12mu works well with 9800, ring radiators, bliesma berylium, and sounds great evdn when crossed over higher, ~4k.
Why 8hm tweeter, what is the reasoning?
12mu works well with 9800, ring radiators, bliesma berylium, and sounds great evdn when crossed over higher, ~4k.
I like to choose 8 0hm becouse I don't like overloading the amplifier since as is known the impedance in some areas can drop too low and also as far as possible I would like to design a speaker with a more or less uniform impedance like the other. Apart this
Why you don't choose the 12mu with l26 ? There is a specific reason ?
And what you think about these Mundorf-AMT19CM1.1C or the Morel Supreme ST 1048 tweeters ?
Why you don't choose the 12mu with l26 ? There is a specific reason ?
And what you think about these Mundorf-AMT19CM1.1C or the Morel Supreme ST 1048 tweeters ?
You will need to pad down the tweeter level, so even with 4ohm tweeter the impedance will be above 5ohm in treble ragion.
L26 is alu cone woofer with sharp breakup that will need attention in the crossover, 12mu is paper pure midrange which should not be croosed over too low. I used it lr2 at 500Hz, and it is the lowest I would try.
Mundorf AMTs are not my cup of tea, I know 12mu very well and it deserves the best tweeter possible.
L26 is alu cone woofer with sharp breakup that will need attention in the crossover, 12mu is paper pure midrange which should not be croosed over too low. I used it lr2 at 500Hz, and it is the lowest I would try.
Mundorf AMTs are not my cup of tea, I know 12mu very well and it deserves the best tweeter possible.
If you want an AMT, the Airborne (4001, 5002), Beyma TPL, and Aurum Cantus are also thought highly of. The AC 2560 has had a mfr change and won't go as low any more, but the 12MU should keep up. I feel the Mundorf are overpriced for the same tech.
I would not got for the L26NRX either. If it must be a 10", since you are in Italy B&C has good options, as well as Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G. I would personally choose 26W/4558T.
I would not got for the L26NRX either. If it must be a 10", since you are in Italy B&C has good options, as well as Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G. I would personally choose 26W/4558T.
Many thanks for all, what you think if I consider these speakers with this crossover cut:
Seas L26RFX/P
(crossover cut at 300Hz)
Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00
(crossover cut at 2.5khz)
BlieSMa T34A-4
Do you think the BlieSMa T34A-4 is good ? or for the some price (300 Euro) is better choose an AMT ?
Seas L26RFX/P
(crossover cut at 300Hz)
Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00
(crossover cut at 2.5khz)
BlieSMa T34A-4
Do you think the BlieSMa T34A-4 is good ? or for the some price (300 Euro) is better choose an AMT ?
I used the AMT19CM1.1C in a three way tower crossed at 3kHz with the manufactures recommended 3rd order electrical filter and I am quite happy with it. At the time they cost $265.00 each which stretched my budget, they now would cost me $459.00 each. I'm not sure I would use them at the current pricing. The pricing in the EU might make them more attractive.
Here is a link to my build.
https://bellarossafabrica.net/brf-377t
Here is a link to my build.
https://bellarossafabrica.net/brf-377t
Thank you for your feedback. In Europe I think the price is similar:
BlieSMa T34A-4 Dome Tweeter (300 Euro)
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/bliesma-t34a-4.html
Mundorf AMT19CM1.1-C AMT Tweeter (350 Euro)
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/mundorf-amt19cm11-c.html
I am undecided between these two.
BlieSMa T34A-4 Dome Tweeter (300 Euro)
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/bliesma-t34a-4.html
Mundorf AMT19CM1.1-C AMT Tweeter (350 Euro)
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/mundorf-amt19cm11-c.html
I am undecided between these two.
As much as I like the Mundorf AMTs for reasons like smooth response, very low stored energy, resistive load, and excellent power handling and distortion characteristics the one area where all AMTs are different is in the dispersion characteristics. I'd say that among 2 excellent drivers I'd be left closely examining the off-axis performance as a major differentiator. Also, they sound like nothing. If you are looking for a tweeter that is going to stand out and say "HERE I AM" this is not it. I have the longer version of this tweeter and it's just a spectacularly transparent performer and in a room with controlled room reflections simply superb.
Just a few words about cabinet volume.
Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 is a great choice and I would look at a well damped cabinet volume of around 3 liters which I calculate to around 180 in3.
Seas L26 have very nice performance in a 50 liter sealed cabinet.
How ever I would not go that route for mainly two different reasons.
1. I think the difference in cabinet volume between bass and midrange is too big for good synergy. I like to keep the ratio between 5-10 times.
So I suggest thinking about a cabinet volume of 15-30 liters bass driver to mate well with the midrange.
Too big difference will not be able to keep the harmonic synergy of acoustic instruments.
2. Using two 8" bass drivers mounted at different distances to floor like Wilson Sasha will reduce a quite nasty out of phase reflection from the floor.
A single bass driver have a much more pronounced dip (-6 to -12dB) in the 80-180 Hz region depending on distance to floor.
Each bass driver needs it's own volume.
Usually it's also easier to find a 8" bass driver that have better performance above 1kHz and breaks up at higher frequency than a 10" driver like L26.
Crossover between bass and midrange will probably be easier to design.
Before suggesting a woofer / midwoofer I would like to know the floor area of intended listening room and your ideas for distance from rear and side walls.
Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 is a great choice and I would look at a well damped cabinet volume of around 3 liters which I calculate to around 180 in3.
Seas L26 have very nice performance in a 50 liter sealed cabinet.
How ever I would not go that route for mainly two different reasons.
1. I think the difference in cabinet volume between bass and midrange is too big for good synergy. I like to keep the ratio between 5-10 times.
So I suggest thinking about a cabinet volume of 15-30 liters bass driver to mate well with the midrange.
Too big difference will not be able to keep the harmonic synergy of acoustic instruments.
2. Using two 8" bass drivers mounted at different distances to floor like Wilson Sasha will reduce a quite nasty out of phase reflection from the floor.
A single bass driver have a much more pronounced dip (-6 to -12dB) in the 80-180 Hz region depending on distance to floor.
Each bass driver needs it's own volume.
Usually it's also easier to find a 8" bass driver that have better performance above 1kHz and breaks up at higher frequency than a 10" driver like L26.
Crossover between bass and midrange will probably be easier to design.
Before suggesting a woofer / midwoofer I would like to know the floor area of intended listening room and your ideas for distance from rear and side walls.
Thank you for your response.
3 liters for Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 cabinet is what I have thinked.
The total volume will be 80 liters bass reflex, It will be a rather voluminous speaker (I love deep bass).
My actual Monacor SPH250KE is inside a 74 liters box bass reflex, but the new box I would like to make it a higher so with more volume.
The simulations I did with BassBox with the new box show greater extension in the lower frequencies with Seas L26RFX/P on 80 liters bass reflex box.
I prefer to use a single woofer inside a large box that is easier to design.
I don't know the distance between the speaker and the wall, because they are going to a new house that I don't know yet.
However, I don't think I will have enough space to put them very far from the wall.
I confess I am quite satisfied with the speakers I have, in fact I would like to design something similar but of better quality.
Actual ---------------------------------------------------> New project
Box Size internal 26x91x32 (cm) ------------------------> Box Size internal 26x100x32 (cm)
Woofer: Monacor SPH250KE (single) -------------------> Woofer: Seas L26RFX/P (single)
Midrange Visaton DSM 50 FFL --------------------------> Midrange Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00
Tweeter: Visaton KE25SC --------------------------------> Tweeter: ????? Morel Supreme ST 1048, BlieSMa T34A-4 Dome , or else ???
Crossover Cut: 600 Hz / 4000 Hz -----------------------> Crossover Cut: 300 Hz / 2500 Hz
This is my actual idea.
3 liters for Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00 cabinet is what I have thinked.
The total volume will be 80 liters bass reflex, It will be a rather voluminous speaker (I love deep bass).
My actual Monacor SPH250KE is inside a 74 liters box bass reflex, but the new box I would like to make it a higher so with more volume.
The simulations I did with BassBox with the new box show greater extension in the lower frequencies with Seas L26RFX/P on 80 liters bass reflex box.
I prefer to use a single woofer inside a large box that is easier to design.
I don't know the distance between the speaker and the wall, because they are going to a new house that I don't know yet.
However, I don't think I will have enough space to put them very far from the wall.
I confess I am quite satisfied with the speakers I have, in fact I would like to design something similar but of better quality.
Actual ---------------------------------------------------> New project
Box Size internal 26x91x32 (cm) ------------------------> Box Size internal 26x100x32 (cm)
Woofer: Monacor SPH250KE (single) -------------------> Woofer: Seas L26RFX/P (single)
Midrange Visaton DSM 50 FFL --------------------------> Midrange Scan-speak 12MU-8731T00
Tweeter: Visaton KE25SC --------------------------------> Tweeter: ????? Morel Supreme ST 1048, BlieSMa T34A-4 Dome , or else ???
Crossover Cut: 600 Hz / 4000 Hz -----------------------> Crossover Cut: 300 Hz / 2500 Hz
This is my actual idea.
Last edited:
https://mapoulin.wixsite.com/audiobymartin/scan-speak-immuminator-12mu8731
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I had the best result playing this baby from 300 Hz to 3200 Hz, and would strongly recommend such crossover points to anyone.
· Going lower than 300 Hz isn’t recommended as distortion will start to become an issue at higher SPL.
· And a good tweeter beats the 12MU8731 above 3 kHz.
· The 12MU8731 can play up to 6 kHz no problem, but it will start beaming above 4000 Hz, limiting how high you can effectively cut it.
· Besides, remember quality tweeters do a better job in this 3kHz - 6kHz range than the 12MU ever can, so don’t try to cut it at 5kHz.
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this is why I have thinked to cut at 300hz
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I had the best result playing this baby from 300 Hz to 3200 Hz, and would strongly recommend such crossover points to anyone.
· Going lower than 300 Hz isn’t recommended as distortion will start to become an issue at higher SPL.
· And a good tweeter beats the 12MU8731 above 3 kHz.
· The 12MU8731 can play up to 6 kHz no problem, but it will start beaming above 4000 Hz, limiting how high you can effectively cut it.
· Besides, remember quality tweeters do a better job in this 3kHz - 6kHz range than the 12MU ever can, so don’t try to cut it at 5kHz.
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this is why I have thinked to cut at 300hz
However I have checked better the distortion of 12MU8731 and I think is better cut at 400Hz, in this range both midrange and woofer have less distortion.
Thank you to note it.
Thank you to note it.
300hz is too low. Not that 12mu would not be capable to withstand. Such a small midranges miss the body if crossed below ~500Hz.
3000 or 4000, it does not matter. Resulting FR, off axis behavior, distortion, crossover slopes, DI...that all is what matters. Baffle signature and diffraction will negatively effect all measurements and will likely find out that your targeted crossover point does not give good results. It is all much much complicated. I would suggest to read all that is available for 12mu sound, experiences, and projects.
3000 or 4000, it does not matter. Resulting FR, off axis behavior, distortion, crossover slopes, DI...that all is what matters. Baffle signature and diffraction will negatively effect all measurements and will likely find out that your targeted crossover point does not give good results. It is all much much complicated. I would suggest to read all that is available for 12mu sound, experiences, and projects.
Another vote for HP filter for >500Hz for 12MU.
Lower than 500Hz will have too much phase shift to make a smooth transition between bass and midrange.
Regarding the bass L26 it's best suited for a sealed box with it's EBP of 50, but since you have built a bass reflex box of 74 liters with Monacor SPH 250 KE it might be a good choice for you since that driver also have an EBP around 50.
EBP 50 best suited for sealed box, and EBP closer to 100 best suited for bass reflex. EBP = Fs / Qes.
Made a simulation of your SPH 250 KE in a 74 liter bass reflex box and L26RFX/P in planned 80 liter bass reflex box.
As you can see you will get approx. 3-4 dB higher bass amplitude in your new speaker compared to your current.
Are you prepared for that?
For a quite flat response in your listening room you need a 80 m2 room, but since linearity don't seems to be your goal, but massiv and deep bass which you will get in a smaller room.
Green curve = L26RFX
Red curve = SPH 250 KE
Blue curve = My target curve for a flat amplitude response down too 20 Hz when the speaker are placed in a 45 m2 big room.
If you place your new speaker in a 45m2 room you will get a 6-8 dB peak at 10-40Hz.
You will not miss bass for sure, but it might be blurred and give a soft tone to all bass notes.
Built a loudspeaker some years ago using Accuton C30-6-24 which I found to be very good. If cost is no object I think it will be a good match with 12MU.
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/accuton/accuton-c30-6-024
Lower than 500Hz will have too much phase shift to make a smooth transition between bass and midrange.
Regarding the bass L26 it's best suited for a sealed box with it's EBP of 50, but since you have built a bass reflex box of 74 liters with Monacor SPH 250 KE it might be a good choice for you since that driver also have an EBP around 50.
EBP 50 best suited for sealed box, and EBP closer to 100 best suited for bass reflex. EBP = Fs / Qes.
Made a simulation of your SPH 250 KE in a 74 liter bass reflex box and L26RFX/P in planned 80 liter bass reflex box.
As you can see you will get approx. 3-4 dB higher bass amplitude in your new speaker compared to your current.
Are you prepared for that?
For a quite flat response in your listening room you need a 80 m2 room, but since linearity don't seems to be your goal, but massiv and deep bass which you will get in a smaller room.
Green curve = L26RFX
Red curve = SPH 250 KE
Blue curve = My target curve for a flat amplitude response down too 20 Hz when the speaker are placed in a 45 m2 big room.
If you place your new speaker in a 45m2 room you will get a 6-8 dB peak at 10-40Hz.
You will not miss bass for sure, but it might be blurred and give a soft tone to all bass notes.
Built a loudspeaker some years ago using Accuton C30-6-24 which I found to be very good. If cost is no object I think it will be a good match with 12MU.
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/accuton/accuton-c30-6-024
You have right to all.
Probably the woofer L26RFX, is not the right choice for what I looking for.
Can you please suggest me a good woofer that work good on 80 liters box in bass reflex (better than my SPH 250 KE) ? (around 300 Euros)
And at this point must be I need to cut it at 600 Hz like my actual speakers.
Probably the woofer L26RFX, is not the right choice for what I looking for.
Can you please suggest me a good woofer that work good on 80 liters box in bass reflex (better than my SPH 250 KE) ? (around 300 Euros)
And at this point must be I need to cut it at 600 Hz like my actual speakers.
Yes I can make some suggestions and help you understand how much the room contributes.
I can not give a straight and solid suggestion since our preferences differs a bit. I prefer perfectly flat bass response in my listening room.
Expected size of future listening room and distance from rear wall is important factors.
Can you make your best guess?
What about your current design with SPH 250 KE?
How big room?
How close to rear and side walls?
In what direction do you want to go compared to your current design?
Deeper?
More punch and faster bass?
I can not give a straight and solid suggestion since our preferences differs a bit. I prefer perfectly flat bass response in my listening room.
Expected size of future listening room and distance from rear wall is important factors.
Can you make your best guess?
What about your current design with SPH 250 KE?
How big room?
How close to rear and side walls?
In what direction do you want to go compared to your current design?
Deeper?
More punch and faster bass?
What you think about the woofer:
Scan-Speak Revelator 26W/8861T00 inside a 80 liters bass reflex
used with 12MU-8731T00 and cutted at 600 Hz ?
Scan-Speak Revelator 26W/8861T00 inside a 80 liters bass reflex
used with 12MU-8731T00 and cutted at 600 Hz ?
In my actual box with SPH 250 KE I have made some mistake that I like to not repeat with the new project.
How big room? I expect not bigger than 15/25 m2.
How close to rear and side walls ? not more then 20/30cm
In what direction do you want to go compared to your current design? some direction
Deeper? yes
More punch and faster bass? more punch in particular
I have thinked about Scan-Speak Revelator 26W/8861T00 with 12MU-8731T00
How big room? I expect not bigger than 15/25 m2.
How close to rear and side walls ? not more then 20/30cm
In what direction do you want to go compared to your current design? some direction
Deeper? yes
More punch and faster bass? more punch in particular
I have thinked about Scan-Speak Revelator 26W/8861T00 with 12MU-8731T00