It's been some time since I do not use my Thorens TD160, and I need to put it back in better than mint condition in order to convert all my LP collection onto high resolution digital.
Basically there two areas that I think I could work on: dampening all potentially resonant areas and improving the power supply.
For the dampening, it seems bituminous felt is better than cork and Dynamat, but you have to use a stiffer type, which I don't know where to find.
The question is to know which areas are propense to ringing, and should be damped. Some sort of small hammer might help there, even listening with medical stethoscope might help. A surface mic might be better, but it may be a bit exaggerated or expensive.
Changing the wood base for a granite one may cure that a lot, but I'm not sure I will use space on my living room for it. Hopefully the digital transfer will be successful.
The next question is the power supply. The Thorens uses just a simple AC/AC transformer for it, with some filtering for the output. I was looking for DIY electronic AC output supplies, which I supposed now should be easy to make, even adapting other types. But I couldn't find any.
The ones you can buy are tremendously expensive, as quality turntables became something for the money-loaded.
Perhaps someone here has built such a supply as a DIY project, and is willing to share it.
Gary Galo developed such a project in The Audio Amateur, but I guess some of the things are easier to implement right now.
Basically you need a crystal controlled generator to output the right frequency. In the Thorens case, the belt changes position mechanically, using a lever switch. That output has to be amplified and that fed to the tt motor. I'm not sure you can control the motor electronically to change speeds.
Basically there two areas that I think I could work on: dampening all potentially resonant areas and improving the power supply.
For the dampening, it seems bituminous felt is better than cork and Dynamat, but you have to use a stiffer type, which I don't know where to find.
The question is to know which areas are propense to ringing, and should be damped. Some sort of small hammer might help there, even listening with medical stethoscope might help. A surface mic might be better, but it may be a bit exaggerated or expensive.
Changing the wood base for a granite one may cure that a lot, but I'm not sure I will use space on my living room for it. Hopefully the digital transfer will be successful.
The next question is the power supply. The Thorens uses just a simple AC/AC transformer for it, with some filtering for the output. I was looking for DIY electronic AC output supplies, which I supposed now should be easy to make, even adapting other types. But I couldn't find any.
The ones you can buy are tremendously expensive, as quality turntables became something for the money-loaded.
Perhaps someone here has built such a supply as a DIY project, and is willing to share it.
Gary Galo developed such a project in The Audio Amateur, but I guess some of the things are easier to implement right now.
Basically you need a crystal controlled generator to output the right frequency. In the Thorens case, the belt changes position mechanically, using a lever switch. That output has to be amplified and that fed to the tt motor. I'm not sure you can control the motor electronically to change speeds.
Hi Carl,
have a look at the threads
Optimally driving a (VPI) synchronous turntable motor
and
DIY 4 Phase Sinewave Generator for Turntable Motor Drive
currently on the second page of this forum.
There's a lot to get through, but all the information is there to build a power supply that will do justice to the TD160, or any other deck that uses a similar motor.
Please feel free to ask any questions, there are quite a few of us who are going down this route, good luck.
have a look at the threads
Optimally driving a (VPI) synchronous turntable motor
and
DIY 4 Phase Sinewave Generator for Turntable Motor Drive
currently on the second page of this forum.
There's a lot to get through, but all the information is there to build a power supply that will do justice to the TD160, or any other deck that uses a similar motor.
Please feel free to ask any questions, there are quite a few of us who are going down this route, good luck.
Hi Ralph,
Thanks for the thread suggestions.
I also found the Gary Galo article from '86, and that project sounds very simple and affordable. I'm not so sure if those others do that.
Galo used an XP-2206 to generate 60Hz and 81Hz, fed into a 30W power amp, and the output into a 6 + 6/110v toroidal. Adjustment was quite straightforward and relatively simple.
The generator board on the DIY 4 Phase thread is expensive, a bit difficult to assemble and needs programming.
The VPI thread I haven't read the 40 pages yet, just a few.
Carlos
Thanks for the thread suggestions.
I also found the Gary Galo article from '86, and that project sounds very simple and affordable. I'm not so sure if those others do that.
Galo used an XP-2206 to generate 60Hz and 81Hz, fed into a 30W power amp, and the output into a 6 + 6/110v toroidal. Adjustment was quite straightforward and relatively simple.
The generator board on the DIY 4 Phase thread is expensive, a bit difficult to assemble and needs programming.
The VPI thread I haven't read the 40 pages yet, just a few.
Carlos
The 1986 article does provide the ability to switch speeds without moving the belt, and it also allows for a (probably) better sinusoidal signal, but it still relies on a capacitor to provide the phase shift between the windings.
The more sophisticated frequency generation used in the streams referred to above provide separate sine and cosine signals for the windings, this reduces vibration in the motor to the lowest level, but at the expense of doubling up on the amplifiers and transformers.
Indeed, those of us using turntables like the Thorens TD124 fitted with the Papst motor have to provide 3 amplifiers and transformers for the three phase motor, but have the advantage of an almost completely vibration free motor with much more torque.
Sadly, like so much in life, you get what you pay for.
The more sophisticated frequency generation used in the streams referred to above provide separate sine and cosine signals for the windings, this reduces vibration in the motor to the lowest level, but at the expense of doubling up on the amplifiers and transformers.
Indeed, those of us using turntables like the Thorens TD124 fitted with the Papst motor have to provide 3 amplifiers and transformers for the three phase motor, but have the advantage of an almost completely vibration free motor with much more torque.
Sadly, like so much in life, you get what you pay for.
Yes, but only as a test bed at the moment, as soon as I get the latest firmware version of 'Pyramid's' chip I shall replace the E50 motor in my TD124 with a Papst 3 phase motor driven by his DDS generator, 3 x 100W amplifiers and toroidal transformers. (the generator in the pictures does not have the required resolution).
Here are a couple of pictures of earlier test setups
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...-vpi-synchronous-turntable-motor-dsc_0114.jpg
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...-vpi-synchronous-turntable-motor-dsc_0122.jpg
Here are a couple of pictures of earlier test setups
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...-vpi-synchronous-turntable-motor-dsc_0114.jpg
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...-vpi-synchronous-turntable-motor-dsc_0122.jpg
Hi Carlos
You need to have a look at the TD160 Super from the late 70's and early 80's these deck had a thin layer of damping applied to the underside of the top plate and chassis.
There are other thing you could try before add a motor controller.
New Thorens belt from: -
https://www.thakker.eu/en/belts/turntables/thorens-td-160-original-thakker-belt/a-4589/
Change the bearing oil for a silicon grade oil 500 - 1000 cst: -
Associated Factory Team Silicone Diff Fluids - 1000cst #AS5450 | eBay
Whenever I've listened to the TD160 I found that record surface noise was about twice as loud as the Linn LP12 and the bass/low instrument had a light weight and muddled quality.
Here are some modifications I've made to my TD160:-
First attempt I add an interference sleeve around the main bearing using plywood this reduced the surface noise and seem to improve fine detail/dynamics.
Second attempt was to have an interference fitting stainless steel sleeve made again this reduced the surface noise levels to a similar level as my LP12.
I'll follow this up with some further mechanical modifications and improvements that I've made to my TD160.
Each modification was extensively listen to before and after and to say I’m very pleased with how it now sounds.
Sharif.
You need to have a look at the TD160 Super from the late 70's and early 80's these deck had a thin layer of damping applied to the underside of the top plate and chassis.
There are other thing you could try before add a motor controller.
New Thorens belt from: -
https://www.thakker.eu/en/belts/turntables/thorens-td-160-original-thakker-belt/a-4589/
Change the bearing oil for a silicon grade oil 500 - 1000 cst: -
Associated Factory Team Silicone Diff Fluids - 1000cst #AS5450 | eBay
Whenever I've listened to the TD160 I found that record surface noise was about twice as loud as the Linn LP12 and the bass/low instrument had a light weight and muddled quality.
Here are some modifications I've made to my TD160:-
First attempt I add an interference sleeve around the main bearing using plywood this reduced the surface noise and seem to improve fine detail/dynamics.
Second attempt was to have an interference fitting stainless steel sleeve made again this reduced the surface noise levels to a similar level as my LP12.
I'll follow this up with some further mechanical modifications and improvements that I've made to my TD160.
Each modification was extensively listen to before and after and to say I’m very pleased with how it now sounds.
Sharif.
Hi Sharif,
Thanks for your suggestions. Of course I think of applying dampening before anything else.
The black material is what? Bituminous felt?
I will look around to see what I can find. I remember there was a 1mm rubber/felt material that was fairly light, even if the solid steel piece you are using would demand re-levelling of the springs. Resonance frequency will also go higher.
BTW: what springs are those on the photo?
Thanks for your suggestions. Of course I think of applying dampening before anything else.
The black material is what? Bituminous felt?
I will look around to see what I can find. I remember there was a 1mm rubber/felt material that was fairly light, even if the solid steel piece you are using would demand re-levelling of the springs. Resonance frequency will also go higher.
BTW: what springs are those on the photo?
Yes it is a Bituminous felt it about 2mm thk.
The standard TD160 springs still work after re-levelling, it does alter the resonance frequency but not the sound.
I now use the Linn LP12 springs as the original Thorens springs suffer from high rotation torsion, this effect the dynamics, transient and detail information.
I'll add some more photos later today showing the rest of the modifications.
Sharif.
Hi Sharif
Where did you get it? I looked around on eBay, but couldn't find any.
I should look around here for a similar product.
I'll look for Linn springs.
Thanks a lot!
Carlos
Where did you get it? I looked around on eBay, but couldn't find any.
I should look around here for a similar product.
I'll look for Linn springs.
Thanks a lot!
Carlos
Would this work on Thorens TD160?
Michell Engineering Record Clamp for Rega Turntables for £29.00 in at Audio Affair
Michell Engineering Record Clamp for Rega Turntables for £29.00 in at Audio Affair
Following on from the above modification the next step was to improve the placement and focus of the music.
I didn’t want to over damping and kill the sound, so I tried adding a plywood inlay to the sub chassis but this did over dampened the sound.
Back to the drawing board or in my case (AutoCAD Inventor) I came up with this solution.
Using a non-scientific knuckle knock test and listening to the note produced without this mod the note had a longer sustain like a metallic ring.
After resetting the deck there was clearly some big improvement to the sound but one area that was missing was the bass, it had gained detail but lost the weight and slam.
I try setting up the suspension several times but each time I had the same results.
The next thing I tried was a set of LP12 springs that didn’t work as the suspension mounting stub were too short.
So a bit of drastic action was required to the TD160 top plate and remove the rear countersunk screw that’s hidden.
By using a 10mm wood bit drill I was able cut a hole and remove the screw.
New LP12 springs and high tensile screws.
After fitting the LP12 springs and achieving a good bounce the sound was still lacking bass weight what was there was very good.
A bit more experimenting with the LP12 spring and I found they had an optimum point were the whole sound just fell in place.
So this is the solution I came up with by adding a mass ring around the main bearing this has allow me to tune the suspension for the sound I was looking for.
Compared to the original Thorens springs and the un-optimized LP12 spring adding the mass around the bearing reduced the torsion rotation.
Finished setting up the suspension.
Sharif
I didn’t want to over damping and kill the sound, so I tried adding a plywood inlay to the sub chassis but this did over dampened the sound.
Back to the drawing board or in my case (AutoCAD Inventor) I came up with this solution.
Using a non-scientific knuckle knock test and listening to the note produced without this mod the note had a longer sustain like a metallic ring.
After resetting the deck there was clearly some big improvement to the sound but one area that was missing was the bass, it had gained detail but lost the weight and slam.
I try setting up the suspension several times but each time I had the same results.
The next thing I tried was a set of LP12 springs that didn’t work as the suspension mounting stub were too short.
So a bit of drastic action was required to the TD160 top plate and remove the rear countersunk screw that’s hidden.
By using a 10mm wood bit drill I was able cut a hole and remove the screw.
New LP12 springs and high tensile screws.
After fitting the LP12 springs and achieving a good bounce the sound was still lacking bass weight what was there was very good.
A bit more experimenting with the LP12 spring and I found they had an optimum point were the whole sound just fell in place.
So this is the solution I came up with by adding a mass ring around the main bearing this has allow me to tune the suspension for the sound I was looking for.
Compared to the original Thorens springs and the un-optimized LP12 spring adding the mass around the bearing reduced the torsion rotation.
Finished setting up the suspension.
Sharif
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