I have something of a conundrum, and possibly a set of mutually incompatible needs. I listen to a wide variety of music across many genres (pretty much anything except jazz and opera). My living / listening room is 4m x 4.3m x 3.2m and space is somewhat limited as it's a multi-function room. Listening is via laptop (using Jriver mediacenter) into a DAC and EL34 based valve amp. Current speakers are B&W DM4, although until recently, I was running Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 3s and Wharfedale 122s. The B&Ws seem to lack the weight and authority needed for large scale orchestral works but are excellent on female vocals.
My objective is to be able to push the speakers as near the front wall as possible with some flexibility over closeness to corners without destroying bass quality or overwhelming the midrange.
My question concerns whether a single full range driver solution is likely to offer what I'm looking for. I'm aware that designs such as the Pensil 7.3 are pretty high on the WAF front, but can they offer the weight and authority needed for full-on orchestral works (e.g. Mahler etc.) and classic rock? I have a modest active subwoofer, but would prefer not to have to use it.
I'm up for some cabinet assembly provided it's from cut-to-size panels (which I can get done locally).
My objective is to be able to push the speakers as near the front wall as possible with some flexibility over closeness to corners without destroying bass quality or overwhelming the midrange.
My question concerns whether a single full range driver solution is likely to offer what I'm looking for. I'm aware that designs such as the Pensil 7.3 are pretty high on the WAF front, but can they offer the weight and authority needed for full-on orchestral works (e.g. Mahler etc.) and classic rock? I have a modest active subwoofer, but would prefer not to have to use it.
I'm up for some cabinet assembly provided it's from cut-to-size panels (which I can get done locally).
The footprint needed for a line array fits within an A4 paper, and for the sound, can't be rivaled.
I'd still use a sub if you would go with a shorter array, say about 16 drivers.
I needed high WAF and my arrays passed the test. It's a bit more work involved than building a box with a single driver, but the soundstage line arrays provide is just amazing.
A pair of 16 or more drivers (the well regarded VIFA TCD9 has a great performance/price ratio) arrays may fit the bill. Look'em up!
I'd still use a sub if you would go with a shorter array, say about 16 drivers.
I needed high WAF and my arrays passed the test. It's a bit more work involved than building a box with a single driver, but the soundstage line arrays provide is just amazing.
A pair of 16 or more drivers (the well regarded VIFA TCD9 has a great performance/price ratio) arrays may fit the bill. Look'em up!
Well, recommendations of high WAF depends on understanding what might be acceptable to any given spouse - guess what, even those of us married for decades can get into serious trouble guessing on that, and you'd be rather a lucky guy to have one that would be happy with the look of a full blown line array, as wondrous as their performance might be 😀
All kidding aside, the first think that comes to mind would be something along the lines of Alpair 10.3 in Pensil MLTL. Excellent sounding wide band driver, fairly compact footprint cabinet ( 9.5"W x 14"D x 43" H) that is a relatively simple build.
The A7.3 in Pensil is a great performer, but would definitely require HP and the use of sub woofer to meet the demands of your range of listening.
All kidding aside, the first think that comes to mind would be something along the lines of Alpair 10.3 in Pensil MLTL. Excellent sounding wide band driver, fairly compact footprint cabinet ( 9.5"W x 14"D x 43" H) that is a relatively simple build.
The A7.3 in Pensil is a great performer, but would definitely require HP and the use of sub woofer to meet the demands of your range of listening.
Many thanks Chris. Is this this standard Pensil 10.3 setup as per the 10.3 plan? Also, are there any benefits of the 10P over the 10.3 and vice versa?
Yup to the first -although to be honest, I've not built this particular enclosure, or for that matter every design off Dave & Scott's drawing boards (that's a lot of drawings)
As to the second question, I've revised my original impression, and although made a choice for the papers for my own system, am still rather on the fence about which to recommend. Neither, I think would disappoint.
Actually, after typing the above paragraph, I'll chum the water my mentioning another very WAF (at my house at least) design for the Alpair10s - another of Dave's compact designs that's proven flexible enough to work with minor changes for a wide range of drivers by both Fostex & Mark Audio . Photo below compares to Pensil 7. IINM, Dave has a pair in solid woods by Bernie, outfitted with FF165WK
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One more question Chris. The Pensil 10.3 as on the Frugal-phile site looks the part, as does the driver. What sort of distance from a front wall is feasible? If 10 to 15cm is OK, then we have a goer.
+1 on the 10.3 in a column reflex/ML-TL (i.e., the Pensil)
They have impressive dynamic range for a small driver -- especially for a full range, and I suspect they'll do what you are looking for.
I have mine in golden ratio reflex boxes right against the wall and they are fine. 10 or 15cm away is likely to be perfect. They do beam a bit compared to the smaller Alpairs, which in this case is helpful.
They have impressive dynamic range for a small driver -- especially for a full range, and I suspect they'll do what you are looking for.
I have mine in golden ratio reflex boxes right against the wall and they are fine. 10 or 15cm away is likely to be perfect. They do beam a bit compared to the smaller Alpairs, which in this case is helpful.
Hi,
A single FR is going to be chalk and cheese compared to the DM4.
If you think DM4's lack bass weight and authority an FR is not
going to be any better in any reality that I can imagine.
rgds, sreten.
A single FR is going to be chalk and cheese compared to the DM4.
If you think DM4's lack bass weight and authority an FR is not
going to be any better in any reality that I can imagine.
rgds, sreten.
Simon - that's not a huge room, and not to argue with sreten, but if you can surmount your reluctance to use the your active subwoofer, I'd opine that the 10.3 could be quite satisfying. THX reference levels without strain? - probably not, but quite musical.
Since this is the Full Range forum, which I think is generally taken to mean single "wide" band driver for most of the range (8? octaves), don't be surprised to find a lot of campaigning for that as a viable alternative. But like unsweetened dark chocolate - not for everyone.
Since this is the Full Range forum, which I think is generally taken to mean single "wide" band driver for most of the range (8? octaves), don't be surprised to find a lot of campaigning for that as a viable alternative. But like unsweetened dark chocolate - not for everyone.
Hi Sreten. I suspect my DM4 issue may be a positioning one: on stands that are too high and with insufficiently stable support: imaging has taken a hit too. Sticking my Wharfedale 122s (5 globe review in HiFi World) back in gave a fuller sound but with a slightly more 'nasal' quality. I'll see what I can fabricate stand-wise over the weekend. FWIW, a friend's Impulse Lali's are probably my regular reference for imaging & soundstage and another friend's ATC SCM40s for dynamics. And I strongly dislike another friend's Audiovectors.
As you can see, my system is a little more humble!
As you can see, my system is a little more humble!
I've taken a look at Scott's Woden Design Simple Reflex OV9 design. This has the ideal width and depth for the speakers' intended location. The Pensil 10.3 is perhaps a tad too deep. Height-wise, the OV9 will need a stand. Scott's design gives an enclosure of around 17 litres. Increasing internal cabinet height to 80cm gives around 38 litres, minus port and driver volumes. The Pensil 10.3 has an internal volume of around 68 litres.
My query, therefore, is whether a taller OV9 to about 38 litres gross is a feasible option.
Another option might be one of the Jordan designs perhaps.
My query, therefore, is whether a taller OV9 to about 38 litres gross is a feasible option.
Another option might be one of the Jordan designs perhaps.
I think if more bass authority is needed use a more powerful full range driver in a sealed box or short TL with a pair of 6.5in or 8in woofers per side in a bi-amped FAST (2-way with low freq XO point) and high pass the full range at circa120Hz. That relieves the full range from the really deep excursions and allows the subs to not have to be spatially co located and hidden. To get good impact at the bottom of the full range end of 120Hz, you need a full range capable of good xmax but stay away from hitting xmax at 120Hz. If you can afford to put the woofers in a "stand" for the tops, then XO higher around 300Hz.
Take a look at the PRV 5MR450NDY for the full range top and any number of good drivers from Peerless SD or HD series in a BR can be used on bottom.
Take a look at the PRV 5MR450NDY for the full range top and any number of good drivers from Peerless SD or HD series in a BR can be used on bottom.
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Here is Wallter, an interesting design by the German Klang&Ton magazine, it is designed to be put against the wall and it is flat, hence not a huge intrusion, even while it is built around a big 12" fullrange driver:
The BR vent is at the bottom.
Plenty of info, measurements, plan, filter, description in German about Wallter can be found here:
Test Selbstbauprojekt - IMG Stageline K+T "Wallter" - Seite 1
It is in essence the complete Klang & Ton article. The supertweeter is required, without it the speaker will sound too dark, according to the article.
Important: in a later published erratum, the BR pipe should be 13cm long.
The BR vent is at the bottom.
Plenty of info, measurements, plan, filter, description in German about Wallter can be found here:
Test Selbstbauprojekt - IMG Stageline K+T "Wallter" - Seite 1
It is in essence the complete Klang & Ton article. The supertweeter is required, without it the speaker will sound too dark, according to the article.
Important: in a later published erratum, the BR pipe should be 13cm long.
I'm sure Scott will chime in, but generally, a reflex design cannot simply be enlarged. It changes the tuning, loading and frequency response, as well as the excursion characteristics.
However, an ML-TL like the Pensil can be altered in profile, as long as you keep the same cross sectional area and port dimensions. Alternatively, the driver could be placed on the wide face.
Going to a FAST design with a woofer in the bass, is another option, but there are technical hurdles involved. A simpler but similar approach would be to build an active subwoofer into the base of each speaker.
Thanks talaerts for the links and Greg for the observations on reflex design (which I'd guessed would be the case). An added complication is that the system might be moving into a 4m x 3m x 3.2m room, firing down the 4m length. This of course means that width will be at a premium with the speakers going around 0.3 to 0.5m from the side walls - too close for the Wharfedales which need 0.7m minimum according to the manual.
I also came across an interested bottom firing port design for one of Mark's drive units (damned if I can find now it as I forgot to bookmark it). This approach seems to work well on my little Wharfedales 122s. Incidentally, these are -3db @ 45hz and -6db @ 40hz, so not a million miles from what the Alpair 10.3 can do: and I find the bass output quite adequate. But SWMBO finds them rather unattractive (as do I to be honest) and a nicely spray or roller painted pair of cabinets in an off-white would indeed look a lot better.
I also came across an interested bottom firing port design for one of Mark's drive units (damned if I can find now it as I forgot to bookmark it). This approach seems to work well on my little Wharfedales 122s. Incidentally, these are -3db @ 45hz and -6db @ 40hz, so not a million miles from what the Alpair 10.3 can do: and I find the bass output quite adequate. But SWMBO finds them rather unattractive (as do I to be honest) and a nicely spray or roller painted pair of cabinets in an off-white would indeed look a lot better.
They sound very nice. Stock drivers are good, treated drivers just that much better.
The pictures hide much of the varigation of the wood, they look even better in person.
dave
I have found that WAF is inversely proportional to loudspeaker volume or any characteristic length scale of the enclosure... my wife is constantly hinting that I should make some small speakers (think Bose Acoustimass size). 😱
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