I had a thread up here recently regarding updating my old SM108's, another WA design, some really useful info received, cheers.
But after a rethink I have now sold the WA sub and the 108's.
I am building 110's to my own speaker proportions, something WA promote.
Volt BM2500.4 I think from memory and Scanspeak D3004/6620's
I'd like comments please re anything other than choice of drive units.
I have asked them to provide a tweeter level adjustment set at ideal theoretical mean due to my hearing issues, don't want these tailored totally to me but to be adjustable for my ears
But after a rethink I have now sold the WA sub and the 108's.
I am building 110's to my own speaker proportions, something WA promote.
Volt BM2500.4 I think from memory and Scanspeak D3004/6620's
I'd like comments please re anything other than choice of drive units.
I have asked them to provide a tweeter level adjustment set at ideal theoretical mean due to my hearing issues, don't want these tailored totally to me but to be adjustable for my ears
Ok, not much response to that 1.
What actually did happen was I went ahead with this project about 6 weeks ago. I have only listened to the end result today for the 1st time, unfortunately the promised 2 weeks delivery from Volt turned into a 5 week wait.
There are a few pictures below, but basically I gave the sizes for the cabinets and supplied the tweeters that I already had and did opt for the L pad attenuator controlling the tweeter response. I also found a sheet of rotary cut oak veneer size 8' x 4' so there are nor joints in the veneer. They are about 53 ltr volume empty.
Well, it's an absolute revelation and that's after only 2 hours listening time.
I've never heard speakers project the way these do.
Initially it was the imaging of the drum kit on and old Taste cd that had got my attention, I could place every drum on the soundstage, not the single position of all drum sounds. ie it's a true stereo rendition of drum sounds.
They impoved with every track I played, showing different characteristics obviously recorded on the disc, very detaled and out of the box sound, fluid mid range and exceptionally tight if not super extended base. It wasn't until I played Mike Oldfields remasterd Tubular bells though until I realised an amazing quality.
Not only were the bass/mid units freeing up and increasing in extension, but as my mind drifted I suddnly thought I was lidtening to the speaker set but also hearing the music through headphones at the same time. I have never experienced imaging like this before, the sound was coming not only from infront from a widespread layout but directly from the side and even from behind. I actually felt that I was sitting in the middle of Oldfields orchestral group as portrayed on his live versions of TBs. Superb is the only way I feel about them.
Was the tweeter variator useful?, absolutely. I was speced standard level in it's mid position with a good degree of both cut and boost available. On a scale of 10 either side of flat I find + 5 to be to my taste, and of course it's still adjustable for others listening.
So, the initial thread was all about getting the best out of a speaker set for someone who has less that perfect linear hearing, it's worked for me so to anyone in the same boat, don't give up on music.
What actually did happen was I went ahead with this project about 6 weeks ago. I have only listened to the end result today for the 1st time, unfortunately the promised 2 weeks delivery from Volt turned into a 5 week wait.
There are a few pictures below, but basically I gave the sizes for the cabinets and supplied the tweeters that I already had and did opt for the L pad attenuator controlling the tweeter response. I also found a sheet of rotary cut oak veneer size 8' x 4' so there are nor joints in the veneer. They are about 53 ltr volume empty.
Well, it's an absolute revelation and that's after only 2 hours listening time.
I've never heard speakers project the way these do.
Initially it was the imaging of the drum kit on and old Taste cd that had got my attention, I could place every drum on the soundstage, not the single position of all drum sounds. ie it's a true stereo rendition of drum sounds.
They impoved with every track I played, showing different characteristics obviously recorded on the disc, very detaled and out of the box sound, fluid mid range and exceptionally tight if not super extended base. It wasn't until I played Mike Oldfields remasterd Tubular bells though until I realised an amazing quality.
Not only were the bass/mid units freeing up and increasing in extension, but as my mind drifted I suddnly thought I was lidtening to the speaker set but also hearing the music through headphones at the same time. I have never experienced imaging like this before, the sound was coming not only from infront from a widespread layout but directly from the side and even from behind. I actually felt that I was sitting in the middle of Oldfields orchestral group as portrayed on his live versions of TBs. Superb is the only way I feel about them.
Was the tweeter variator useful?, absolutely. I was speced standard level in it's mid position with a good degree of both cut and boost available. On a scale of 10 either side of flat I find + 5 to be to my taste, and of course it's still adjustable for others listening.
So, the initial thread was all about getting the best out of a speaker set for someone who has less that perfect linear hearing, it's worked for me so to anyone in the same boat, don't give up on music.
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Hi y'all
Billybob Nomates here, have I offended someone in a present or past life?
Does my ignorance override sincerity?
Have I transgressed some line in the dirt that cannot be crossed?
Maybe I'm blind or braindead as well as suffering hearing loss, just wondered why no repies??
Ok, going to cry myself to sleep with self doubt, please contact me at the Samaritans.
Billybob Nomates here, have I offended someone in a present or past life?
Does my ignorance override sincerity?
Have I transgressed some line in the dirt that cannot be crossed?
Maybe I'm blind or braindead as well as suffering hearing loss, just wondered why no repies??
Ok, going to cry myself to sleep with self doubt, please contact me at the Samaritans.
I started a response yesterday but it had nothing much positive to say and so I did not post it. It made the two points below.
A 10" paper driver crossing to a 1" tweeter on a flat baffle is not seen much anymore and is going to have a characteristic sound due to the woofer operating in breakup over much of its range and the large change in directivity across the crossover region. Since you like the sound and SEAS have recently brought out a similar kit harking back to the Dynaco A25 you are probably not alone.
Why did you choose to pay extra for an inflexible tone control on the speaker rather than simply using the tone controls on your amplifier or control unit?
I read your project with interest, oldgit (if I must call you that...😱 ). But I wanted to consider a reply, since we were not allowed to comment on the drive units...
10" paper bass and tweeter has an illustrious history.
DeVore Orangutan: DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Seas A26 and Dynaco A25: SEAS A26 Kit
I used to have a speaker like this. The Wharfedale Melton with 12" paper bass and that famous cone tweeter which escaped 25% purchase tax in the UK back in the day, by virtue of 12" bass considered a professional rather than luxury item. Crossover is typical commercial simple, eh? Just a big bass coil, and 10uF and 0.18mH on the tweeter. Dispersion was limited, but a nice sound actually and it went loud without much effort.
You have to cross this sort of big speaker below 2.5kHz to avoid bass cone breakup. Which is hard on tweeters.
Of course, you wonder if a 3 way makes more sense with this amount of driver and cabinet investment. But no doubt big drivers and cabinets have real authority. And your comments on imaging are interesting. If you sit in the small sweet spot, you are getting lots of direct radiation and less room echoes. 🙂
I would assume Wilmslow are using second order bass and negative polarity 3rd order tweeter filter as is usual with this sort of badly time aligned design. Though a series filter can be good too with this sort of big 4 ohm bass two way IMO, which is my current interest.
10" paper bass and tweeter has an illustrious history.
DeVore Orangutan: DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Seas A26 and Dynaco A25: SEAS A26 Kit
I used to have a speaker like this. The Wharfedale Melton with 12" paper bass and that famous cone tweeter which escaped 25% purchase tax in the UK back in the day, by virtue of 12" bass considered a professional rather than luxury item. Crossover is typical commercial simple, eh? Just a big bass coil, and 10uF and 0.18mH on the tweeter. Dispersion was limited, but a nice sound actually and it went loud without much effort.
You have to cross this sort of big speaker below 2.5kHz to avoid bass cone breakup. Which is hard on tweeters.
Of course, you wonder if a 3 way makes more sense with this amount of driver and cabinet investment. But no doubt big drivers and cabinets have real authority. And your comments on imaging are interesting. If you sit in the small sweet spot, you are getting lots of direct radiation and less room echoes. 🙂
I would assume Wilmslow are using second order bass and negative polarity 3rd order tweeter filter as is usual with this sort of badly time aligned design. Though a series filter can be good too with this sort of big 4 ohm bass two way IMO, which is my current interest.
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Yes. I'd be glad to be running paper because of this, it should help a bit with the first issue.
To put a rough figure on it, perhaps 1400Hz to be safe from the first issue and maybe half an octave lower for the second.
Additionally I'd expect these woofers to benefit from reasonable sensitivity and a larger voice coil than some.
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Steve, I've noticed you already gave some figures for this. Maybe mine are a little critical. Somewhat driver dependent.
I just go with the geometry usually, AllenB. 🙂
8 inch cone breaks up around 3kHz. Bigger or smaller cones, work it out for yourself. https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/Know_How/Literature/Papers/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster.pdf
What might come to the rescue is the cone damping. Heavy paper cones or polycones will have less cone breakup. They don't need a lot of filtering to sound OK.
Of course, they will be less revealing than metal cones. But easier.
8 inch cone breaks up around 3kHz. Bigger or smaller cones, work it out for yourself. https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/Know_How/Literature/Papers/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster.pdf
What might come to the rescue is the cone damping. Heavy paper cones or polycones will have less cone breakup. They don't need a lot of filtering to sound OK.
Of course, they will be less revealing than metal cones. But easier.
I was looking at my experiences crossing a 15" paper driver for 90 degree directivity (which links in with the beginning of breakup). By and large, using a second order filter I had (relatively minor) issues at 1200Hz that I had less of at 900Hz and none of at 600Hz.
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Andy, you might just be able to see in the pictures that I use early Naim kit, they don't have tone controls. It had crossed my mind that that was in effect all I was doing.
Also my hearing issues had a large play in the decisions I made.
They are on a flat baffle as I think it can be seen that for what is now a pretty big stand mounted speaker, they are mounted at near ear level to my listening position.
Also my hearing issues had a large play in the decisions I made.
They are on a flat baffle as I think it can be seen that for what is now a pretty big stand mounted speaker, they are mounted at near ear level to my listening position.
Don't worry, quite proud to be an Old fart, don't have to justify myself all the time now.
I think you are right re the sweet spot, the speakers are pretty close to the wall, but being so deep the baffle is about 500mm out and heavily angled to my sitting position.
Out and out low limit isn't excessive, not disappointing just low rather than ultra low. (my hearing is perfect at low freq). It's the projection that is attraction, the sound really is out of the box.
I guess I'm old school in the fact that when I really listen to music I'm usually on my own and rooted to the spot and can afford to have a very singular focal point
I found the drivers strange on inspection, unlike the other 8 or 10" bass and bass/mid Volt units I had the past, the suspension is very tight and isn't simply a rubber roll surround it's doped fabric, or so it seems, with a rubber limiter? Magnet assembly is 8.1kg. Sorry, don't have the crossover figures or the schematic.
Hope I don't infringe any rules by linking to the Volt unit used.
And yes, given the additional boost in sensitivity, I'm probably 1/3 back on the volume control.
http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/bm25004-10/
Ps Searched out that 2014 version of Crime of the Century, it really does come pretty close to the dynamics of the original vinyl release, thanks for the heads up on that one
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This is a nice build , very old school. Like so many old school designs I bet it doesn't work well on paper but the sum of the parts is better than the math suggests.
Shame you've not got the crossovers schematics. Is it a Wilmslow design?
Shame you've not got the crossovers schematics. Is it a Wilmslow design?
Indeed, a nice looking set of cabinets with drivers for a high
overall sensitivity speaker. I did some simulating and it turned
out this design would be a simple one with a single inductor on
woofer (steep natural roll-off) and an electrical 2nd order on
tweeter with some minor attenuation.
Volt 2500.4 is an example of very fine British quality product.
overall sensitivity speaker. I did some simulating and it turned
out this design would be a simple one with a single inductor on
woofer (steep natural roll-off) and an electrical 2nd order on
tweeter with some minor attenuation.
Volt 2500.4 is an example of very fine British quality product.
Nice to see someone happy with Wilmslow recently, they've had a bit of a bashing. Volt are slow as are ATC. As you say very small companies with old fashioned values. You know what you do get is great value if a little expensive though! It's unbelievable that Wilmslow don't charge for a theoretical crossover design. I'm sure most would happily pay say £40. Madisound will do it and charge. Just stand up blokes I suppose.
Stefan
Stefan
Lets put this another way which may well fall more in line with the other stories you have heard, I haven't read anything about WA at all.
I'm delighted with the end result, and overall the delay was not their fault although they initially stated 2 weeks delivery. Am I impressed with WS's service, ie, their professionalism etc? No, they aren't the company they once were and who's name they trade under but all things change.
I don't like the way their prices rose dramatically when they decided to list prices exc vat. Had I been able to purchase the drivers elsewhere cheaper I would have done, but I really wanted to go this route and am well pleased that I did, overall 🙂🙂
I was beginning to wonder what your relationship was with Wilmslow but I see from this post you are considering purchasing the company?
How much of the improved sound do you think is down to the equalisation for your hearing loss and how much down to the design of the speakers? If you think the former might be significant have you considered being more methodical in finding an optimum correction curve for your hearing loss?
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Errrr, when you get back to planet earth or sober up, I don't know which it is, then you may want to look back at what you have quoted. I have confirmed my status and view of WA in the post this morning.
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