I have wharfedale diamond 10.4 (2.5 way passive crossover).
I would like to make an active crossover but im very confused of meaning of two and a half crossover. Could i build 3 way active crossover and use it with these speakers?
Original crossover diamond 10.4 - bass 40-140Hz, midd-bass 140-3800Hz, highs above 3800Hz.
cut off frequency for bass 6dB
midd-bass 12dB
highs-12dB
Another problem is gain of power amplifiers. For midd-bass and highs i would like to use SE power follower 99. This design doesnt have gain so im using tube preamp with gain 30.
For low frequency 20-140Hz i will use Marantz PM 44 SE. I dont know the gain of this amp. If there is possibility to measure gain? Or to change the gain by changeing the components on circuit board of that amplifier. I dont want to use volume control to change gain.
I would like to make an active crossover but im very confused of meaning of two and a half crossover. Could i build 3 way active crossover and use it with these speakers?
Original crossover diamond 10.4 - bass 40-140Hz, midd-bass 140-3800Hz, highs above 3800Hz.
cut off frequency for bass 6dB
midd-bass 12dB
highs-12dB
Another problem is gain of power amplifiers. For midd-bass and highs i would like to use SE power follower 99. This design doesnt have gain so im using tube preamp with gain 30.
For low frequency 20-140Hz i will use Marantz PM 44 SE. I dont know the gain of this amp. If there is possibility to measure gain? Or to change the gain by changeing the components on circuit board of that amplifier. I dont want to use volume control to change gain.
If it's a 2.5-way, then the bass and midbass units will overlap in frequency. It's highly likely that the bass unit will go from the bottom to 140Hz as you say, but the midbass unit will also go from the bottom to 3.8K. The two drivers will both generate sound in the region below 140Hz.
I have the Wharfedale Pacific Pi-40 speakers, bought about a decade back. The Atlantic, and then the Pacific range pre-date the Diamond range. The Pi40 is a 2.5-way floorstander. In this speaker, they have done something unusual with the midbass and bass drivers. They have coupled both the midbass and bass units in parallel electrically, thus feeding exactly the same signal to both. The midbass unit is mounted on a sealed, smallish chamber, thus rolling off at a certain frequency. The bass unit is mounted on a large BR enclosure, thus allowing it to operate till the bottom of the frequency range. This means that both drivers reproduce sound in the mid region, and only one driver works in the low bass region. This is totally counter-intuitive --- everything I know about 2.5-way speakers indicates that it should have been the opposite. So, I have decided that I don't understand how the Pi40 works. 🙂
How did you get these figures? I doubt Wharfedale publishes slopes. Couldn't find any such data on their Website.
Unless you are willing to remove the drivers, reach inside the enclosure and try to pull out the crossover from within the enclosure, you will have to live with whatever is inside. You will just have access to the bi-amping terminal at the back of the speaker. In that case, (i) you won't be able to bypass their crossover, and (ii) you won't be able to feed separate signals to the midbass and bass units .. they are coupled to the same bi-amp terminal.
I am curious -- how do you propose to replace the existing internal crossover? Will you cut open the enclosure?
Thanks for your reply TCPIP 🙂
The specifics are written in user manual. For diamond - 10.4 (140Hz/3.8KHz).
I already opened them from the side of drivers. The crossover is under the bass driver. I have to admit that cabinets are build really great.
You are right that bass and mid bass works together. Its not a problem to took out the crossover. I think ill build a 2way crossower, cut off 3.8Khz. Ill connect the mid-bass and bass driver directly to amplifier, but for bass driver ill use the choke which already exist there. The tweeter will be also connectec directly to amp. In future ill build another power amp for bass driver.
I have tried bi-amping with existing passive crossover but im not satisfied. Somehow i dont see too much advantages with passive bi-amping.
My present setup is modified marantz cd-40, tube preamp, and power folower 99 by Andrea Ciuffoli (this is single ended design - A class. current 3A by channel). Im very pleased with this amplifier, if i can call it like that, because there is no gain. The best mids and highs region i have ever heard. No matter of speakers this amp sounds great. Before i move in Poland I had B&W 602S3 and i was using the same amp. The sound was great also.
Ill try to search on net spec for your PI-40
The specifics are written in user manual. For diamond - 10.4 (140Hz/3.8KHz).
I already opened them from the side of drivers. The crossover is under the bass driver. I have to admit that cabinets are build really great.
You are right that bass and mid bass works together. Its not a problem to took out the crossover. I think ill build a 2way crossower, cut off 3.8Khz. Ill connect the mid-bass and bass driver directly to amplifier, but for bass driver ill use the choke which already exist there. The tweeter will be also connectec directly to amp. In future ill build another power amp for bass driver.
I have tried bi-amping with existing passive crossover but im not satisfied. Somehow i dont see too much advantages with passive bi-amping.
My present setup is modified marantz cd-40, tube preamp, and power folower 99 by Andrea Ciuffoli (this is single ended design - A class. current 3A by channel). Im very pleased with this amplifier, if i can call it like that, because there is no gain. The best mids and highs region i have ever heard. No matter of speakers this amp sounds great. Before i move in Poland I had B&W 602S3 and i was using the same amp. The sound was great also.
Ill try to search on net spec for your PI-40
About you PI40 i think is the sam situation like in diamond 10.4
There must be a crossover for mid bass drivers. But the driver which is mounted in bigger enclosure goes at lower frequencies becouse of bigger enclosure. In your case is even better then in mine. Becouse you can build (if you are in that) the 2way active crossower and connect the 2 drivers together. It will work for sure but with better damping responce. Try the link ive send it to you. And if you need a help with building active crossover ill be glad to help you.
There must be a crossover for mid bass drivers. But the driver which is mounted in bigger enclosure goes at lower frequencies becouse of bigger enclosure. In your case is even better then in mine. Becouse you can build (if you are in that) the 2way active crossower and connect the 2 drivers together. It will work for sure but with better damping responce. Try the link ive send it to you. And if you need a help with building active crossover ill be glad to help you.
About Eton 8-480/32 HEX
Gormish123 send some more informations about speakers you have, maybe even a picture. Ill try to look for specifics.
Gormish123 send some more informations about speakers you have, maybe even a picture. Ill try to look for specifics.
My question was specifically about the slopes -- how did you know the slopes of the crossover filters? That's not mentioned in the manual.
Hope it all works out. 🙂
Actually, I'm really grateful for your help, but I have no intention of modifying the Pi40. I think they are not worth putting time and energy into -- the enclosures are light and poor quality. (And this used to be their top-of-the-line model in 1999 - 2000.) I think it'll be quite easy to build something much better than those Pi40's.
TCPIP
About slopes,
I saw the crossover, for bass is one choke only, for mid-bass L to driver and C to GND, for highs C to driver and L to GND. As i know (maybe im wrong) its:
6dB bass
12dB mid-bass
12dB tweeter
To be honest im not sure in this.
But if i decide to use 12db act. crossover i dont see any problem with slopes, it could be just better.
Maybe im missing something in all this, but its worth to try.
Anyway, first ill test one speaker with active crossover and the oder one with passive. If all is fine they should sound similar. I know this is not the best way for testing, but in the other hand i can always put the original crossovers back.
You said your speakers are not worth for active system, i have to say i dont agree, for sure they'll play better in the mid-bass region.
About slopes,
I saw the crossover, for bass is one choke only, for mid-bass L to driver and C to GND, for highs C to driver and L to GND. As i know (maybe im wrong) its:
6dB bass
12dB mid-bass
12dB tweeter
To be honest im not sure in this.
But if i decide to use 12db act. crossover i dont see any problem with slopes, it could be just better.
Maybe im missing something in all this, but its worth to try.
Anyway, first ill test one speaker with active crossover and the oder one with passive. If all is fine they should sound similar. I know this is not the best way for testing, but in the other hand i can always put the original crossovers back.
You said your speakers are not worth for active system, i have to say i dont agree, for sure they'll play better in the mid-bass region.
Oh, got it. You're referring to the electrical filter order, not the acoustic.
Even slight changes to the crossover will change the sound. Typically, it'll make the soundstage worse, due to worsening phase coherence among the drivers. Bigger changes will affect the SPL curve, may introduce peaks and troughs.
Thanks, but I'll pass. 😀 Any enclosure which fails the knuckle test so miserably is not worth bothering about.
🙂
There is other thing too, happines of building something and seeing the results. I know I cant build a perfect active crossover and use it with speakers i have. From the other hand, we really dont know if speakers from producents have perfect frequency characteristic.
I hope you will tell us more about your project in future, because i feel you have some plans to build something special 🙂
There is other thing too, happines of building something and seeing the results. I know I cant build a perfect active crossover and use it with speakers i have. From the other hand, we really dont know if speakers from producents have perfect frequency characteristic.
I hope you will tell us more about your project in future, because i feel you have some plans to build something special 🙂
If this is the happiness you seek, isn't it much more satisfying and less expensive to build a pair of speakers from scratch, starting with a kit? Why disembowel a commercial speaker?
The Asawari
The Asawari Mk 2
etc. All this is old hat -- my Asawari project was discussed quite actively a few years ago when I just finished writing it up.
The cabinets of diamond 10.4 are really good, i just like to see if i can take more from these comercial speakers. Cost was 450 euro. I really cant find really good drivers and build super cabinets for that price.
Ill take a look on links you send later.
About kits, all i can find is with passive crossover, honestly i didnt take a serious research about, my intention is to try an active system.
Do you use some equipment for measuring the acoustic characteristic?
Ill take a look on links you send later.
About kits, all i can find is with passive crossover, honestly i didnt take a serious research about, my intention is to try an active system.
Do you use some equipment for measuring the acoustic characteristic?
Yes, the Wharfedale floor standers are very inexpensive.
Sure. Enjoy the ride. 🙂
Yes. You can read all about them in my links.
Man, you had a hard way to go 🙁 i readed the beggining of your text about Asawari project and its make me more excited to follow your way 🙂
First i had to learn all about cabinets ..i just dont know where to start looking for informations.
Anyway im gratefull for conversation we have. I only hope that here in EU it will be much more easier to get some nice drivers. In hope that i can count on your help in building nice speakers I would like to keep the contact with you.
First i had to learn all about cabinets ..i just dont know where to start looking for informations.
Anyway im gratefull for conversation we have. I only hope that here in EU it will be much more easier to get some nice drivers. In hope that i can count on your help in building nice speakers I would like to keep the contact with you.
I agree that the journey had challenges, but the bottom line is that it takes a lot of struggle and mistakes to learn some of these things. All my DIY friends in Europe and NA have described lots of problems, burned transistors, bad speakers, and silly mistakes of their own. I don't think it's easy learning how to build audio systems, period. And I had things easy in certain matters -- I could get first-rate cabinets built without moving a muscle. I have a friendly neighbourhood carpenter who does a superb job of these things.
Sure, the Peerless/Tympany/ScanSpeak family is made in EU and you'll get them easily. About help and guidance, there are many more on the forums who are much better than me -- that's the one thing you'll get easily here. 🙂
Thanks for nice words 🙂
Id like to back on active crossover (little digression).
My project is 12 dB 2 way active crossover-cut off 3800Hz.
C=2,2nF
R=19,04 Kohms
I noticed that condensators of value 2.2nF ( i bought them 20 for selection) have little bit different values. Small variations in range of pF change the cut-off frequency in range of 100Hz. I should buy more of them to find the closest value and then to try to combine the resistors in paralel or in series to get the right value for filters.
If i did it well, i should look for some way to check it in real world. Maybe some white noise generator. Im not sure if i can do this using Cool edit software.
I have hard way to go, but i want to be sure that all is fine with crossover, so i can compare the sound of active and passive system not worring about active crossover.
For these chip project im using NE5532. What do you think, it will be better to add separate regulators (LM317T and LM337T) for every IC, or to use just four of them, for left and right chanell?
Id like to back on active crossover (little digression).
My project is 12 dB 2 way active crossover-cut off 3800Hz.
C=2,2nF
R=19,04 Kohms
I noticed that condensators of value 2.2nF ( i bought them 20 for selection) have little bit different values. Small variations in range of pF change the cut-off frequency in range of 100Hz. I should buy more of them to find the closest value and then to try to combine the resistors in paralel or in series to get the right value for filters.
If i did it well, i should look for some way to check it in real world. Maybe some white noise generator. Im not sure if i can do this using Cool edit software.
I have hard way to go, but i want to be sure that all is fine with crossover, so i can compare the sound of active and passive system not worring about active crossover.
For these chip project im using NE5532. What do you think, it will be better to add separate regulators (LM317T and LM337T) for every IC, or to use just four of them, for left and right chanell?
Hi tcpip, I know this thread is a bit old now but I see you have the Wharfedale pacific pi 40 's. You may not have them by now, but i noticed your comment on the cabinets and your right, however, the carpentry is not that bad, but look inside and they're empty !
Well, I have just acquired a pair of these, they dont sound bad, but not that great either, they're defiantly not high end. Mid fi I guess.
It seems to me that the components are actually pretty good quality, ie the drivers and crossover.
I think that the sound of these speakers could be significantly improved by maybe an extra brace in the lower compartment and defiantly adding some heavy damping to the internal walls, wadding, maybe better cables from input terminals to the crossover and soldering them to. Whafedale just used push on spades in their flag ship speaker ????
Anyway, 2 or 3 hours work, very little money and hey presto.... much better speakers.... what do you think ?
Richard
Well, I have just acquired a pair of these, they dont sound bad, but not that great either, they're defiantly not high end. Mid fi I guess.
It seems to me that the components are actually pretty good quality, ie the drivers and crossover.
I think that the sound of these speakers could be significantly improved by maybe an extra brace in the lower compartment and defiantly adding some heavy damping to the internal walls, wadding, maybe better cables from input terminals to the crossover and soldering them to. Whafedale just used push on spades in their flag ship speaker ????
Anyway, 2 or 3 hours work, very little money and hey presto.... much better speakers.... what do you think ?
Richard
Sorry, Richiebuoy, I am seeing this post one and a half years after you wrote it.
My feeling is that the biggest weakness of the Pi-40 (and all inexpensive floorstanders) is the cabinet, not the drivers. The cabinet is very hard to fix unless you cut off the entire rear wall and put (solid 20mm plywood) braces every 4-6 inches. (Never use MDF for braces; MDF does not have the stiffness needed.)
If you do this, then the cut-and-refix marks will be visible from the back, and probably from the side, but you will get a better enclosure. My enclosure almost sings -- it's useless for anything but very low volumes.
The next thing to do will be to re-measure and review the crossover. I am very unsure what a '2.5-way' crossover does in this case. Apparently, in the Pi-40, the two midbass units both start producing sound below the tweeter cut-off point, and then one of the midbass drivers rolls off somewhere in the 100-200Hz region, leaving only the lowest midbass driver to carry the sound to the bottom octaves.
This seems very strange for a speaker design. If you want to build a 2.5-way at all, you should have both midbass units producing sound right from the bottom octaves upwards, and then at some point, one midbass driver should roll off (i.e. it should have a high-pass filter at the baffle step point, maybe at 200-300Hz) leaving the remaining midbass driver to handle the upper-bass and midrange areas alone. In other words, two midbass drivers should be active at the bottom of the frequency range. In the Pi-40, two midbass drivers are active in the midrange region and only one is active in the bottom portion of the frequency spectrum.
If I had to re-do the crossover, I would completely change this and either make it a three-way crossover, or make it a 2.5-way the way I understand 2.5-ways.
Just my thoughts. Haven't tried any of this....
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