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Someone who only trust specs does not know what is the best sounding equipment. It is a start to look for good specs. But you need to listen to make up your mind what you like best. For me I listen now 40 years and I am still discovering better equipment I like. Nobody can tell you what you like best and specs tells nothing about what you like best. So start your DIY audio by building projects you can handle with your soldering/construction skills and succes will come within the years / decades. Do not start with only a dac but make a plan for the whole audio chain. You have to make a lot of decisions.
And learn your hearing limits. You do not need a noise level of -130db If you cant hear the difference with -100db noiselevel. Same with distortion, channel separation, slew rate etc., when you know your limits it is much easier to choose your diy projects.
DIY is always better(more satisfying) because you did it yourself.🙂
And learn your hearing limits. You do not need a noise level of -130db If you cant hear the difference with -100db noiselevel. Same with distortion, channel separation, slew rate etc., when you know your limits it is much easier to choose your diy projects.
DIY is always better(more satisfying) because you did it yourself.🙂
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I'm afraid you are never going to get a definitive answer to the question in the title of your thread...
Many of the people posting designs here are audio hobbyists as well as electronics professionals. An advantage of designing a circuit as a hobbyist is that you can design whatever you like, instead of having to satisfy some specification list from a customer or a system designer that may or may not make sense at minimum cost. Hobby circuits are of course built in smaller numbers, so if there is some design flaw that only shows up once in every thousand builds, it might go unnoticed. The equipment that hobbyist designers have at their disposal is usually also less fancy than that of professionals.
Do you want a DAC that can handle PCM or DSD? If PCM, does it need to support S/PDIF or AES3 input signals?
I think SINAD is grossly overrated. My valve DAC has about the worst SINAD of all 21st century audio DACs, but so far everyone who has listened to a version of it likes it. I wouldn't recommend using it with digital volume control, though.
I started designing and building hobby DACs for the fun of it. I had fun and ended up with a DAC that works well enough for me, so it was worth it for me.
The technical background of my valve DAC is explained here: https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/03 Didden LA V13 mvdg.pdf A lot of it is also applicable to other DACs, particularly sigma-delta DACs.
Many of the people posting designs here are audio hobbyists as well as electronics professionals. An advantage of designing a circuit as a hobbyist is that you can design whatever you like, instead of having to satisfy some specification list from a customer or a system designer that may or may not make sense at minimum cost. Hobby circuits are of course built in smaller numbers, so if there is some design flaw that only shows up once in every thousand builds, it might go unnoticed. The equipment that hobbyist designers have at their disposal is usually also less fancy than that of professionals.
Do you want a DAC that can handle PCM or DSD? If PCM, does it need to support S/PDIF or AES3 input signals?
I think SINAD is grossly overrated. My valve DAC has about the worst SINAD of all 21st century audio DACs, but so far everyone who has listened to a version of it likes it. I wouldn't recommend using it with digital volume control, though.
I started designing and building hobby DACs for the fun of it. I had fun and ended up with a DAC that works well enough for me, so it was worth it for me.
The technical background of my valve DAC is explained here: https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/03 Didden LA V13 mvdg.pdf A lot of it is also applicable to other DACs, particularly sigma-delta DACs.
People who hang out here just like to build stuff. Music reproduction and system matching is way down the list if it even makes the list .
It's like asking someone to give you something good. What that "good " would be neither you nor the giver has no idea.
My advice is to buy a ready to go vintage system from Quad Electronics , Meridian Audio , or other respected British (or French ) or Scandinavian origin and try to improve upon it. US systems are also good but they tend to be expensive and often over the top ...
It's like asking someone to give you something good. What that "good " would be neither you nor the giver has no idea.
My advice is to buy a ready to go vintage system from Quad Electronics , Meridian Audio , or other respected British (or French ) or Scandinavian origin and try to improve upon it. US systems are also good but they tend to be expensive and often over the top ...
The support from this community is outstanding, and while many members here are hobbyists, there are seasoned industry professionals among the posts that have their own brands, or design on behalf of others.
Many people will build, test and critique designs, suggesting improvements or updates. You don’t get that with a store-bought DAC at any price.
The wonderful thing about DIY is you get to be in control of what parts you use. The choice is yours as to how much safety margin and what special features you want to build into your project.
Checkout the affordable dacs* produced by forum member Chiurutu which he also sells on ebay.
I have his R2R discrete logic ladder dac and just ordered a dual balanced TDA1541 dac, also with discrete logic.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325417859611
* unfortunately 'affordable' dacs can't be good enough for some members - there's a lot of snobbery on this forum when it comes to HIFI gear.
I have his R2R discrete logic ladder dac and just ordered a dual balanced TDA1541 dac, also with discrete logic.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325417859611
* unfortunately 'affordable' dacs can't be good enough for some members - there's a lot of snobbery on this forum when it comes to HIFI gear.
Really?
What about this dac: https://www.ebay.com/itm/400985245472?hash=item5d5c954720:g:rzwAAOSwjVVVqP03&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4AbHa44p2K7bdEXo/eJ5WISjRVxAoImG+WtrNNklJKNpJdnl9XH9UHA0hN8F4bkJ39YxnzZJk0QwDfcwdFYuonvJaT4oPxWPUSBnznvgCGHP9XlQSgVnDKbwSPIZ2vYSt9KtXqaH/e0x4um0CBPBACFMtG3Ru7jSm5sGx26XSuuz7Ntwa6yvVb5dyZgrYvwhfksB/e8BZhhyJoMhIyreANsYJ6sXjKyN52trpBcaa7xvrPAF+hs9HxIe74xRuAa/3HO8+PCiViaFLWdc8nbTI2APx61FEYAOkW2nefO/QrCM|tkp:Bk9SR9bi96XmYQ
Or how about this:
https://apos.audio/products/topping...eILYDG2a_CRdDbovXnC6pYPoE36Nhe0BoC7fQQAvD_BwE
Maybe this:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter
Or:
https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-may-dac/
.
.
<some dacs omitted from list for the sake of brevity>
.
.
Or the Vivaldi with all options:
Along the above continuum of dacs, at what exact dollar value and or performance level would you say a dac goes from being affordable and good enough, to a symbol of snobbery?
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Don't think anybody here has tried all the dacs in your list. Even more unlikely that anyone had all those dacs at once to directly rank them relative to each other.
What usually seems to happen is people start out with a dac they think should be good enough, and which seems like it would be a good value for the price. Of those people, many eventually start to realize that the dac isn't all they had hoped for. So they try again, this time spending a little bit more in the hopes that the next dac will be good enough to be the last dac they ever need. The above process continues over time until they find a dac they like, or they reach their maximum spending limit for a dac. As a result the total amount of money they spend finding that last dac can be considerably more than if they just went out and bought the best dac they could afford in the beginning.
Or course, if the person estimates wrong then that maximum price yet still affordable dac could be better than the minimum that would be 'good enough.' There is also a chance that the dac won't be deemed good enough, even though it used up the whole dac budget. It depends a lot on how the person perceives sound and how good the rest of the person's system is.
Also, there is no point in putting a extraordinarily good dac in a system that uses speakers like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175123287612?epid=1326229336&hash=item28c6294e3c:g:klQAAOSwfcVUGb3j&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4KnFKDdnd4A5DBVGdEbidKT19IHtmzoXyI/X30F0S5vDP5tfDdDmYSTwPRPWRQw2YCDwsoC+2lkmbzH+RiOoU6UzDby2VtpLf2SsamaFlQ2eGZemdtnf3sKxnKNnJuMLzCE76z7wJYpIDYhWrsyvcNVV5XgYviEKfSDeIZ1yzdkuBInjAph18SKvbfk6bp7RKxZfv1YvqUr4Qgsi7QA8jDg9pnRKYYVaaS9Kkh8VjYG6dzdhXjejLXqnoZ6YRjfrzqGBVnYwMENnZbkLBc3Q6+sDS0kScQmGL/rZs3aIGU1n|tkp:BFBM1P3dpuZh
So, the rest of the system tends to go through a trial and error process much like what happened with the dac.
Presumably there should be a better way. Sometimes there is and other times maybe not.
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Not really, because many audio DACs with PCM input internally convert it to some massively oversampled and noise shaped, short word length format before doing the actual digital to analogue conversion. DSD can lead to a simpler DAC because this conversion need not be done anymore, see designs such as the DSC2 and my return-to-zero shift register FIRDAC. The disadvantages are that this conversion needs to be done elsewhere if you want to play PCM files, for example in software such as HQPlayer or with a separate hardware converter, and that you can't choose a short multibit format.
It's the ratio of the RMS value of the signal to the RMS value of everything else in the audio band, measured with a sine wave input. The issue is that that "everything else in the audio band" can be noise, low-order distortion, high-order distortion, idle tones or whatever. Some of those things are much more annoying than others if they are hard enough to hear them, and some of those things are masked far better by the desired signal than others.
Most really high SINAD DACs use a massively oversampled and noise shaped multibit DAC with mismatch shaping. No problem on an IC, but rather complicated for a discrete DAC.
DIY community has really low reference points since it a "bottom feeder" environment. Most are delusional. It's a pretty much solitary game and you can't rely on any opinion . It's a try and see process.
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Ok. I had Berkeley DAC , Audio research CD8 and didn't think much of them but I thought Weiss 202 dac was exquisite in the sense that it was absolutely relaxing like after a smoke of joint. Denapfris Therminator which replaced it did not produce that feeling although my friend thought it was better . Old Theta Gen V was a thunder but lacked little subtlety. Abbas of unfortunate Ukraine is making the best Dacs but it's a nuisance to get one.
Welcome to the forum, one other thing you may want to consider also is a decent headphone amp/headphones so that you can evaluate your progress, as many of the various components can create different sound, interactions, etc.
It is usually a lot more cost effective at first to be able and figure out what you prefer.
And be prepared to read, a lot…
It is usually a lot more cost effective at first to be able and figure out what you prefer.
And be prepared to read, a lot…
Budget?
I have some experience with two of the dacs under consideration. Without going into all the details, if it were me I would focus on the 2nd two candidates most.
When I tried the first one, I did find some problems. Some of those issue have been addressed by optional products. The dual hat dac IME suffers from some implementation shortcomings. Also the active I/V board also seems to have some SQ issues. Ian devised an ad hoc filter to help but he doesn't sell them. Most users seem to prefer transformer output which puts the dac chip into more of what might be termed 'voltage mode' operation which then has the effect of increasing distortion. Maybe Ian's best products are his most recent FIFO isolators and reclockers. Some people use Ian't FIFO_Pi with Andrea Mori clocks and report improved sound. The FIFO products can also be used with I2S input dacs other than Ian's dual DAC Hat.
The prototype Andrea Mori DSD dac in its current form I have at the moment is easily the best dac I have heard. However, there are some improvement mods I need to perform before I can give a final opinion. The downside is cost, especially if you want to buy the best of what Andrea offers. The other downside is that for the finest conversion of PCM->DSD256, excellent offline conversion software is free, but conversion time is slow for high quality mode.
Of course, to get the full benefit of the dac, one needs a system that is more or less on par. To me that may mean ESL speakers, no class-D amplifiers, high quality power conditioning, etc. The total cost of a top notch system is not trivial. One might start with out with headphones and a headphone amp. Something in same class as the dac might be $5k - $10k for the HPA and a pair of Audeze planar cans. IOW, budget is a big deal for most people.
I have some experience with two of the dacs under consideration. Without going into all the details, if it were me I would focus on the 2nd two candidates most.
When I tried the first one, I did find some problems. Some of those issue have been addressed by optional products. The dual hat dac IME suffers from some implementation shortcomings. Also the active I/V board also seems to have some SQ issues. Ian devised an ad hoc filter to help but he doesn't sell them. Most users seem to prefer transformer output which puts the dac chip into more of what might be termed 'voltage mode' operation which then has the effect of increasing distortion. Maybe Ian's best products are his most recent FIFO isolators and reclockers. Some people use Ian't FIFO_Pi with Andrea Mori clocks and report improved sound. The FIFO products can also be used with I2S input dacs other than Ian's dual DAC Hat.
The prototype Andrea Mori DSD dac in its current form I have at the moment is easily the best dac I have heard. However, there are some improvement mods I need to perform before I can give a final opinion. The downside is cost, especially if you want to buy the best of what Andrea offers. The other downside is that for the finest conversion of PCM->DSD256, excellent offline conversion software is free, but conversion time is slow for high quality mode.
Of course, to get the full benefit of the dac, one needs a system that is more or less on par. To me that may mean ESL speakers, no class-D amplifiers, high quality power conditioning, etc. The total cost of a top notch system is not trivial. One might start with out with headphones and a headphone amp. Something in same class as the dac might be $5k - $10k for the HPA and a pair of Audeze planar cans. IOW, budget is a big deal for most people.
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Are we talking the dac for CD PCM standard or HIgh Res files . If the later , yes it pays to invest but quality of CD reply remains pretty much stagnant in decent implementations for last 20 years IMHO.
Standard CD is 16/44 PCM. Convert that CD audio to DSD256 (or higher) with an exceptionally good algorithm and run it through a really good DSD dac. That's what people are spending money on today because once you hear it, you want it. For example, HQ Player and Holo May dac, plus a water-cooled SOA PC with SOA video card for accelerated DSP processing. Maybe $15,000 if you want the best of that. Does it sound good? Sure, if you set it up right.
Sure , I can easily believe it although I haven't be able to hear the dac which has a dynamic envelope and rough energy compared to old Theta Gen V. For the money companies are asking for current SOTA DACs they should be better across the board no ifs and buts.
What are you using after the dac?
Also, if you have a open budget that allows for travel maybe we could get you out here for a day or something to see for yourself what some of this stuff sounds like. However, still have to upgrade the dac, and still have some more work to do on one other project. Besides the dac we have DS Audio optical phono, and legendary Sound Lab ESL speakers. Its all stuff that once you hear it, you want it.
Also, if you have a open budget that allows for travel maybe we could get you out here for a day or something to see for yourself what some of this stuff sounds like. However, still have to upgrade the dac, and still have some more work to do on one other project. Besides the dac we have DS Audio optical phono, and legendary Sound Lab ESL speakers. Its all stuff that once you hear it, you want it.
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Not really Mark. I mean I had at one point Soundlab Millennium . VTL 750 , ARC ref 3 , CD8 with Berkeley dac for internet files and Kubala Sosna wires. Sold it all after divorce but I don't miss that sound and I'm never going back to it. (not that I will be able to afford something like that in a foreseeable future) One of the members of local audio club has Best Soundlab panels , Boulder amp (earlier he had Atmasphere monos) John Curl pre and pretty good collection of records , files. Everytime I listen to that system it confirms my observation that panel speakers are dead end of audio and dead audio in itself. They are just too detached from reality of musical event.
Best , L
Best , L