Is the double C-core transfomers or IE transformers? Someone said that C-core have good bass but IE have better mellifluence, because C-core increase winding length and hence an increase in leakage inductance and capacitance,so the detail in high frequence is less.Someone said C-core attenuate high frequence moderately so have good balance.
Another question :Is siliver wire better than copper?
Another question :Is siliver wire better than copper?
The only difference is that C-cores tend to have a higher mu, hence fewer turns can be used, and more bandwidth. Fewer turns also means a smaller core is necessary for the same power level.
But then, you can get GOSS (Grain-Oriented Silicon Steel, as opposed to generic transformer iron, NOSS (Non-Oriented ..)) in E-I shapes as well, so there is absolutely no difference.
Just as you can't read a book by its cover, so also you can't tell anything (except gross power level at some low frequency) just by looking at a transformer. It all depends on winding design and geometry.
Silver wire is ever-so-slightly more conductive than copper; economically, it still costs some 100? (I have no idea) times more than copper; by weight, it's more dense so there will be negative weight savings vs. resistance. Audiophoolically, it is the greatest thing since markers on the edge of a CD.
Tim
But then, you can get GOSS (Grain-Oriented Silicon Steel, as opposed to generic transformer iron, NOSS (Non-Oriented ..)) in E-I shapes as well, so there is absolutely no difference.
Just as you can't read a book by its cover, so also you can't tell anything (except gross power level at some low frequency) just by looking at a transformer. It all depends on winding design and geometry.
Silver wire is ever-so-slightly more conductive than copper; economically, it still costs some 100? (I have no idea) times more than copper; by weight, it's more dense so there will be negative weight savings vs. resistance. Audiophoolically, it is the greatest thing since markers on the edge of a CD.
Tim
As we can't really do an "all things being equal" type comparison, I'd say the definitve answer is, it depends. It depends on the design, the manufacturer, the materials, the insularion, the core material etc.
I have Lundahls and Lancrofts in C core and Peerless, Dyna, Fisher and Magnequest in EI and they're all good, but do sound different. The Peerless is probably the best all round (to my ears), and it's from the 50's, but doesn't suit my main amp Z-wise, so I use the big Lundahl.
So it just depends just what you're looking for I s'pose, so you'll just have to try a few, or take a risk on the one your gut will tell you is the one you'll prefer.
I have Lundahls and Lancrofts in C core and Peerless, Dyna, Fisher and Magnequest in EI and they're all good, but do sound different. The Peerless is probably the best all round (to my ears), and it's from the 50's, but doesn't suit my main amp Z-wise, so I use the big Lundahl.
So it just depends just what you're looking for I s'pose, so you'll just have to try a few, or take a risk on the one your gut will tell you is the one you'll prefer.
thanks for your good advices
May be I will try with Jensen IE transformers and Audio note
double C-core transformers with my tube preamplifier. It will cost so much that I will became a beggar.😉
May be I will try with Jensen IE transformers and Audio note
double C-core transformers with my tube preamplifier. It will cost so much that I will became a beggar.😉
Try Sowter of the UK for very good Output Transformers
I had some absolutely superb Ultra Linear Push Pull Transformers Custom Made for the Elan Audio Enigma Monoblock Amplifiers running KT 88's
Absolutely superb, but not cheap
Find details on the Enigma on www.elan.com.au
I had some absolutely superb Ultra Linear Push Pull Transformers Custom Made for the Elan Audio Enigma Monoblock Amplifiers running KT 88's
Absolutely superb, but not cheap
Find details on the Enigma on www.elan.com.au
Audiophoolically, it is the greatest thing since markers on the edge of a CD.
Well, this is an old argument that has been hashed out on that "other" newsgroup. Usually the users of the term "audiophool" are those who have never done extensive or serious listening to great audio equipment. I'm no golden ear, but I can certainly hear the difference between copper wired components and those using silver wire or OCCC wire for that matter. My only problem with silver wire for audio is the jacked-up price of the stuff compared to the relative costs of the raw material. If you can afford silver, by all means try it.
C-cores usually are more compact than EI cores of same rating, and are generally not as leaky. The opinions as to which type sounds better are more or less equally divided. I'll go one better by saying at least one well-known tube audio expert I know believes that all of the higher quality well-known OPT's pretty much sound the same. There was an actual coparison in an issue of StereoSound magazine of several different manufacturers, but I don't know what the outcome was because I don't read Japanese!
John
Well, this is an old argument that has been hashed out on that "other" newsgroup. Usually the users of the term "audiophool" are those who have never done extensive or serious listening to great audio equipment. I'm no golden ear, but I can certainly hear the difference between copper wired components and those using silver wire or OCCC wire for that matter. My only problem with silver wire for audio is the jacked-up price of the stuff compared to the relative costs of the raw material. If you can afford silver, by all means try it.
C-cores usually are more compact than EI cores of same rating, and are generally not as leaky. The opinions as to which type sounds better are more or less equally divided. I'll go one better by saying at least one well-known tube audio expert I know believes that all of the higher quality well-known OPT's pretty much sound the same. There was an actual coparison in an issue of StereoSound magazine of several different manufacturers, but I don't know what the outcome was because I don't read Japanese!
John
jlsem said:
I am a scientist. I see absolutely no possible physical reason why any person should be able to 'hear wire'. Face it buddy, if it were true, double-blind tests would show something. But they don't, so it's literally all in your head.
Tim
Best for zero NFB?
I use PP zero NFB amps, and would be grateful for any recommendations as to which OPTs retain their high frequency performance. My present (modded) Leak Stereo 20 is a bit down in the extreme treble.
I use PP zero NFB amps, and would be grateful for any recommendations as to which OPTs retain their high frequency performance. My present (modded) Leak Stereo 20 is a bit down in the extreme treble.
Hi,
No?
How does one undo a brainwash, I wonder?
Leaving aside personal preferences, I think it's safe to say that "scientifically" there is a difference between copper and silver conductors.
If they left it out of that scientific education or not, it's none of anyone's doing but it's definitely there for all to be seen and heard.
Cheers Joel II,😀
No?
How does one undo a brainwash, I wonder?
Leaving aside personal preferences, I think it's safe to say that "scientifically" there is a difference between copper and silver conductors.
If they left it out of that scientific education or not, it's none of anyone's doing but it's definitely there for all to be seen and heard.
Cheers Joel II,😀
Hi,
I've reason to doubt the OPT is at fault as I've heard 20/20s that weren't lacking in the treble with their standard OPTs.
Cheers,😉
I've reason to doubt the OPT is at fault as I've heard 20/20s that weren't lacking in the treble with their standard OPTs.
Cheers,😉
I've reason to doubt the OPT is at fault as I've heard 20/20s that weren't lacking in the treble with their standard OPTs.>>
Yes of course, but this is with feedback. I'm talking about modding the amp so it has no global negative feedback. When you do that the treble is attenuated. My question is what PP OPTs sound good with zero negative feedback. For a start, Lundahl is used by Lynn Olsen, and Plitron is used by Menno van der Veen. The former is C core, the latter is toroidal. Any ideas?
Yes of course, but this is with feedback. I'm talking about modding the amp so it has no global negative feedback. When you do that the treble is attenuated. My question is what PP OPTs sound good with zero negative feedback. For a start, Lundahl is used by Lynn Olsen, and Plitron is used by Menno van der Veen. The former is C core, the latter is toroidal. Any ideas?
I am a scientist. I see absolutely no possible physical reason why any person should be able to 'hear wire'. Face it buddy, if it were true, double-blind tests would show something. But they don't, so it's literally all in your head.
My apologies; I was under the impression you were a seventeen year-old food eater. The scientific reasons for this phenomenon have been well known since Bell Labs began investigating copper wire properties in connection with transmitting ever weaker electrical signals over long distances. Oxygen in copper forms copper oxides along the boundries of individual copper crystals thereby rectifying feeble speech signals. Whatever can be done to keep oxygen away from copper conductors is paramount in preventing these signals from disappearing. Obviously silver wire is an easy answer (no rectifying compounds present in silver wire, and tarnish itself is highly conductive), but silver telephone wires are really expensive. Recent developments in copper wire manufacture, i.e. Ohno Continuous Cast Copper or long crystal copper, are significant aides to this problem and can fortunately be applied to better audio. Loss of detail is the key here and although I said I can hear the difference in an excellant system, I never offered that it was necessarily better. Some people don't like the sound of silver; it's too "jumpy". Cynicism regarding other people's experiences because they're not the same as yours is not very admirable and robs one of opportunities of discovering the more interesting aspects of a great hobby.
John
My apologies; I was under the impression you were a seventeen year-old food eater. The scientific reasons for this phenomenon have been well known since Bell Labs began investigating copper wire properties in connection with transmitting ever weaker electrical signals over long distances. Oxygen in copper forms copper oxides along the boundries of individual copper crystals thereby rectifying feeble speech signals. Whatever can be done to keep oxygen away from copper conductors is paramount in preventing these signals from disappearing. Obviously silver wire is an easy answer (no rectifying compounds present in silver wire, and tarnish itself is highly conductive), but silver telephone wires are really expensive. Recent developments in copper wire manufacture, i.e. Ohno Continuous Cast Copper or long crystal copper, are significant aides to this problem and can fortunately be applied to better audio. Loss of detail is the key here and although I said I can hear the difference in an excellant system, I never offered that it was necessarily better. Some people don't like the sound of silver; it's too "jumpy". Cynicism regarding other people's experiences because they're not the same as yours is not very admirable and robs one of opportunities of discovering the more interesting aspects of a great hobby.
John
It is highly doubtful that Silver Winding Wire il likely to make any Audible difference to an Output Transformer
After all, the Audio Signal has passed through hundreds of meters of very ordinary wire during the Recording Process, and also loads of fairly ordinary Op Amps, Capacitors, Resistors, Plugs Sockets, Switches and Etc
The only place Silver Wire would maks sense, is in the Voice Coil in High Powered Loudspeakers
Not to make these sound better, but to reduce Voice Coil Heating at high levels
The Output Transformer in the Enigma Amplifiers were made in the UK by E A Sowter, based on Grain Oriented E and I Laminations, and wound in 14 Sections
Frequency response without feedback + and - 0.5 dB 10 Hz to 50 KHz, and about + and - 0.5 dB 3 Hz to above 100 KHz with 10 dB of Feedback
Mu limits of measurement are 10 Hz to 100 KHz so the above figures with feedback are estimates only
By the way, the Leak Valve Amplifiers are very ordinary ones by modern standards
After all, the Audio Signal has passed through hundreds of meters of very ordinary wire during the Recording Process, and also loads of fairly ordinary Op Amps, Capacitors, Resistors, Plugs Sockets, Switches and Etc
The only place Silver Wire would maks sense, is in the Voice Coil in High Powered Loudspeakers
Not to make these sound better, but to reduce Voice Coil Heating at high levels
The Output Transformer in the Enigma Amplifiers were made in the UK by E A Sowter, based on Grain Oriented E and I Laminations, and wound in 14 Sections
Frequency response without feedback + and - 0.5 dB 10 Hz to 50 KHz, and about + and - 0.5 dB 3 Hz to above 100 KHz with 10 dB of Feedback
Mu limits of measurement are 10 Hz to 100 KHz so the above figures with feedback are estimates only
By the way, the Leak Valve Amplifiers are very ordinary ones by modern standards
PROPHETS AND EVEN MORE PROPHETS...
Hi,
As much as I doubted it myself, the difference is quite audible...
I follow you in your reasoning but that's certainly not the only application...
All in all, talk about something you have experience with...obviously not many of you have any field experience whatsoever when it comes to silver wire...
And don't tell me it's expensive, it is cheap...
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
As much as I doubted it myself, the difference is quite audible...
I follow you in your reasoning but that's certainly not the only application...
All in all, talk about something you have experience with...obviously not many of you have any field experience whatsoever when it comes to silver wire...
And don't tell me it's expensive, it is cheap...
Cheers, 😉
This statement only demonstrates we are just trying to make the best of an imperfect source.
John
fdegrove said:
Ah, so now sound scientific reasoning and logic is brainwash? Sorry Frank, strike two!
Now Frank, you should know by now that this refers to audible differences. Silver is indeed more conductive than copper; a table here shows (relative factors of the coefficient of resistance): pure aluminum = 1.6, gold = 1.4, full-hard (work hardened) copper = 1.03, annealed copper = 1.00, silver = .94. Can you hear 6% of conductivity? No, not really.
If it's there to be seen and heard, then I'm sure you'll gladly apply yourself to a double-blind test? Didn't think so.
Tim
Hi,
Hey Eric,
Just as an example 1m of 0.6mm PTFE insulated high purity (> 99.99%) silver wire retails for 18 Euro.
If you want a complete pricelist just send me a mail and I'll forward it to you.
Cheers,😉
Hey Eric,
Just as an example 1m of 0.6mm PTFE insulated high purity (> 99.99%) silver wire retails for 18 Euro.
If you want a complete pricelist just send me a mail and I'll forward it to you.
Cheers,😉
Cloth Eared?
I am a scientist. I see absolutely no possible physical reason why any person should be able to 'hear wire'. Face it buddy, if it were true, double-blind tests would show something. But they don't, so it's literally all in your head.
Well listening to music does not involve sight, I guess you've never listened, or maybe you just didn't hear? by the way what field of science are you in? and is your mind as closed to possibilities you dont 'see' in your work, or just with audio? I'd really like a reply to this as I dont see what use you are as a scientist if you have already made your mind up about the 'whatever it is'
Mozfet🙁
I am a scientist. I see absolutely no possible physical reason why any person should be able to 'hear wire'. Face it buddy, if it were true, double-blind tests would show something. But they don't, so it's literally all in your head.
Well listening to music does not involve sight, I guess you've never listened, or maybe you just didn't hear? by the way what field of science are you in? and is your mind as closed to possibilities you dont 'see' in your work, or just with audio? I'd really like a reply to this as I dont see what use you are as a scientist if you have already made your mind up about the 'whatever it is'
Mozfet🙁
I've tried listening to different wires, but alas they all sound the same. I can't say I've done much anyway because the idea to me that a good conductor, different from the previous by perhaps .2%, could produce an epiphany of difference, is sheer ludicrous. I'll maintain it's the sticker effect (or any other in-your-head effect), as with many other audiophile-related products.
Now, if you *can* show me a wire that does actually sound distinctly different, I'll change my mind.
>> by the way what field of science are you in?
The Good Stuff.. electronics, metalworking.. Engineering-ey. Check my website (link on my profile page) to see some things I've done.
>> I'd really like a reply to this as I dont see what use you are as a scientist if you have already made your mind up about the 'whatever it is'
I'm not big on philosophy, but lesse... A scientist theorizes, investigates, experiments.. All I can do right now is theorize based on current information, which is drawn from other scientific resources, electrical laws for instance.
However, psychology must certainly apply because to be heard and enjoyed, the music must be processed by the brain, which conciously or subconciously could easily skew the 'true' information. The power of suggestion is very powerful indeed.
And to answer the obvious inevitability, this would explain why I don't hear wires, because my personal prejudice is against it.
Tim
Now, if you *can* show me a wire that does actually sound distinctly different, I'll change my mind.
>> by the way what field of science are you in?
The Good Stuff.. electronics, metalworking.. Engineering-ey. Check my website (link on my profile page) to see some things I've done.
>> I'd really like a reply to this as I dont see what use you are as a scientist if you have already made your mind up about the 'whatever it is'
I'm not big on philosophy, but lesse... A scientist theorizes, investigates, experiments.. All I can do right now is theorize based on current information, which is drawn from other scientific resources, electrical laws for instance.
However, psychology must certainly apply because to be heard and enjoyed, the music must be processed by the brain, which conciously or subconciously could easily skew the 'true' information. The power of suggestion is very powerful indeed.
And to answer the obvious inevitability, this would explain why I don't hear wires, because my personal prejudice is against it.
Tim
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