I have a general question about why Chinese DIY knockoffs from companies such as 8audio, and DIY Gene seem to be so popular. The marketing glitz is: "I've got a $25,000 preamp (e.g. Jadis JP200, Marantz 7, Matisse Fantasy, etc) that you can build yourself for $800 including shipping".
But from what I've read on this and other forums is:
--> These famous preamps claim to fame was not just the design, but the components used.
--> These knockoff designs may or may not lend themselves to customization (as opposed to Aikido).
--> From what I've read (and don't fully understand), there are problems with these designs as well.
So, are they selling well on ebay and yahoo because people are buying into the promise of getting something for nothing?
Best Regards,
Stan
But from what I've read on this and other forums is:
--> These famous preamps claim to fame was not just the design, but the components used.
--> These knockoff designs may or may not lend themselves to customization (as opposed to Aikido).
--> From what I've read (and don't fully understand), there are problems with these designs as well.
So, are they selling well on ebay and yahoo because people are buying into the promise of getting something for nothing?
Best Regards,
Stan
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Joined 2009
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I can imagine that some of them are pretty good and worthy of consideration. To achieve these low prices of course there is no doubt the parts are made in China, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of lesser quality - it is a case of buyer beware though. Another reason that the prices are low are the usual ones - low labour costs, low infrastructure costs, low cost-of-sales, no brand recognition to justify high prices, limited service & support and low R&D costs because they are all ripped off from somebody else.
I can imagine that the high priced branded units will have better resale, better service and support and possibly better engineering. But they are not immune from the lure of cheaper parts fabricated in China so don't be surprised if everyone is using similar parts.
I can imagine that the high priced branded units will have better resale, better service and support and possibly better engineering. But they are not immune from the lure of cheaper parts fabricated in China so don't be surprised if everyone is using similar parts.
I heard on BBC the other morning the average salary in Japan is 77,000 but in China just 3500!!!
Maybe a small factor.🙄
Maybe a small factor.🙄
Values of the same Dollar are very different in US and China. That's why Chinese production is so cheap, even when costs of transportation are added. It is the first factor.
The second factor is, they don't pay for advertising of preamps that were already well advertised by their respected original manufacturers.
I remember in Russia commercials about Tide washing detergent. The lady demonstrated 2 different packs, one was Tide, another was plain white with "Ordinary Washing Powder" written on it, suggesting that she needs less of Tide to wash the same clothes.
Later, somebody started production of a detergent called "Ordinary Washing Powder". It become very popular, since people knew about it already, it was advertised by Tide, for their money, and was already firmly associated in minds of consumers with Tide that is very good according to that commercials.
Chinese power amps were also popular before people discovered poor quality of output transformers....
The second factor is, they don't pay for advertising of preamps that were already well advertised by their respected original manufacturers.
I remember in Russia commercials about Tide washing detergent. The lady demonstrated 2 different packs, one was Tide, another was plain white with "Ordinary Washing Powder" written on it, suggesting that she needs less of Tide to wash the same clothes.
Later, somebody started production of a detergent called "Ordinary Washing Powder". It become very popular, since people knew about it already, it was advertised by Tide, for their money, and was already firmly associated in minds of consumers with Tide that is very good according to that commercials.
Chinese power amps were also popular before people discovered poor quality of output transformers....
You can always make something cheaper by copying someone else's design, as that way you don't have to pay the designer. Just ignore copyright laws, business ethics etc. You can also save money by confusing CE-marking with CE-compliance.
This business model works because the average Western consumer is not interested in copyright, ethics etc. and when something doesn't work is more likely to simply throw it away than make a fuss. Consumers also buy mainly on appearance rather than internal quality.
All this makes life much harder for those chinese businesses who do try to do things properly, design their own stuff (or pay royalties), and ensure CE-compliance etc.
This business model works because the average Western consumer is not interested in copyright, ethics etc. and when something doesn't work is more likely to simply throw it away than make a fuss. Consumers also buy mainly on appearance rather than internal quality.
All this makes life much harder for those chinese businesses who do try to do things properly, design their own stuff (or pay royalties), and ensure CE-compliance etc.
its easy to put any name on a board when the buyers know next to nothing about tube designs
that, and a few people have been very clever to jump on the tube diy train, long before anyone else dared to
and its obvious they work rather than sleeping
that, and a few people have been very clever to jump on the tube diy train, long before anyone else dared to
and its obvious they work rather than sleeping
copy a tube amp design ? cheaper ? 😕 they all look the same to me; plain boards, copies of nothing, just variations, like most other tube design seem to be 😀
Fabulous story!
Many of the knockoff tube preamps and amps I've seen were designed with poor layouts, questionable "improvements" over the originals, bad choices of designs to copy, and most commonly, zero attention to thermal management and reliability (e.g., electrolytic capacitors mounted right next to hot tubes, no circuit board venting...).
A few years ago, I bought a "Matisse" phono board from a Chinese seller. Using the parts per the schematic made for one of the worst sounding boards - the RIAA curve was obviously not being used! With the circuit board layout, it also picked up RF like you wouldn't believe.
With some mods and component replacement, I eventually got it all sorted out, but it certainly was not worth the time or money.
With some mods and component replacement, I eventually got it all sorted out, but it certainly was not worth the time or money.
Tube amp design with no new surprise anymore, simple is best, sound quality count on part's quality only ,NOS tube can sound better but not for amp manufacturing use, brand name manufacturer has to buy tubes from China which still in production , so when those amp made from China improve their out looking and change rest of the parts in better quality with they all use the same tubes but price are so different ! who will go for manufacture outside China ? the only way left for us is turn to DIY
tony ma
tony ma
The best tube designed were probably from the late 1930s so I think copyright has passed. Also there are only so many ways to connect up tubes and the Chinese rarely use the best.
I'm also not aware of CE issues with tube amps - have you examples? I'm also not convinced that CE compliance is the holy grail either - rather another EU racket to get their hand in your wallet.
Quality has taken a back seat yes. I think however it's largely down to value for money. For instance I can buy a medium power PP amp from Quad for £4,500 or a £300 Yaqin from China. Hmmm - now let me think...
We hae seen failures of main and output transformers on some of the cheaper sets.
Lack of proper isulation and construction.
Lack of safety ground.
Some design/manufacture leave a great deal to be desired.
Lack of proper isulation and construction.
Lack of safety ground.
Some design/manufacture leave a great deal to be desired.
This is true - quality is hugely variable. They build to a quality that is whatever they can get away with and paid for. However a properly paid maker can produce very high quality stuff - but chisel them on price and quality will drop off a cliff, it is the chinese way: to give the buyer what he paid for.
The main problem however is that now we choose between quality chinese gear and poor chinese gear. Our manufacturing are suppressed under reams of laws, patents, certification. health and safety and high costs of living so maybe it isn't surprising. It is sad however: I have an old Bush table-top radio in a wooden cabinet. Every single part of it is made in England, from the Mullard/BVA tubes to the chassis to the speaker, the transformers, the capacitors and resistors.
If we make nothing, we are hardly equipped to have a go at the chinese, particularly when they are not the ones pushing free trade, globalisation and fiat paper money that robs us. We should respect countries that bother maufacturing stuff: when we start doing that we start making stuff ourselves again.
Part of hte problem lies with the consumer. The masses want everything for the lowest price (Look Martha, it is cheaper at Wal Mart!).
Wal Mart used to buy made in the USA whenever possible (under Sam Walton). Once he passed, corporate amerika took over and it is buy the cheapest item possible so we can cut the price and beat out the competition.
The corporate attitude coupled with cattle class people who only buy on price combine together to drive manufacturing to the lowest cost site, with quality secondary or even tirtiary.
'We have meet the enemy, and he is us."
Wal Mart used to buy made in the USA whenever possible (under Sam Walton). Once he passed, corporate amerika took over and it is buy the cheapest item possible so we can cut the price and beat out the competition.
The corporate attitude coupled with cattle class people who only buy on price combine together to drive manufacturing to the lowest cost site, with quality secondary or even tirtiary.
'We have meet the enemy, and he is us."
I always wondered what music sounds like in China, or Japan, or any other part of the world
makes a lot of difference, wouldnt it
makes a lot of difference, wouldnt it
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Yes, in this regard we get what we deserve because we are the one's choosing what to buy based on price.
Same story with the poor quality of most newspapers, which print utter drivel most of the time - but only because 'we' buy it by the millions.
And we get the government we deserve because politicians have to pander to the mass voter...(oops - isn't politics against forum rules ?)
Tinitus - absolutely, no doubt that in parts of China and other places, the last thing people are worried about is the fidelity of the music they listen to.
Variability of quality is a very real problem. There can be a very wide range of quality on the same product, which applies to both individual components and completed units.
Is a split bobbin ever used on output transformers? Just wondering as I have a Chinese amp, well once upon a time it was a Chinese amp, and it had split bobbin OT's that reflected around 5300 ohms to the primary on the 4 ohm taps and 3900 ohms to the primary on the 8 ohm taps. Plus there is decent air gap between the windings and the laminations, you can see through it. I could never get a top quality sound of it with those OT's. It was/is a 6L6 PP amp. Power tranny gets real hot too, even though the size is fair. Edit: I tried to take a pic and flat batts.
I'm not an expert on this, but I understand for domestic electronics CE compliance means that the equipment conforms to the Low Voltage Directive and the EMC Directive. Roughly speaking, LVD means that the item won't electrocute you or burn your house down. It covers things like insulation, fuses, minimum spacings between live mains voltages and other parts of the circuit. EMCD means that the item won't cause undue inteference to other electronics, and can cope reasonably well with incoming interference.
I guess for valve amps the LVD is the more important one, although an SMPS heater supply might have EMC problems. It is clear that some Chinese factories think CE-compliance simply means that you have to put a CE sticker on the back in order to sell into Europe. There are signs that the reputable factories are beginning to realise that their less scrupulous countrymen are getting all of them a bad name, but there seems to be very little effective policing of the regulations at either end.
One trick which is used in SMPS is to get a legitimate test certificate for an initial sample, then for subsequent production simply omit the EMC suppression filter components. The factory saves a few pence per item, and the customer finds that he gets radio or TV interference but may not realise what is causing it. If he complains he is told that it must be OK, as it is "CE-compliant".
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