Why do I want a horn supertweeter instead of a dome tweeter? This is just to add some top end sparkle over 8-10kHz.
1) High, 100dB, sensitivity.
- But my speaker is only 85dB so would have to pad it down.
2) What is a horn super tweeter's diaphragm made from?
- Is it paper or metal?
- How well will it match the tonality, speed, and detail of a high quality paper driver like Scan Speak? I.E. I don't like a metal tweeter with a poly or paper woofer as they sound different.
3) Better off-axis dispersion?
4) Better resolution?
5) Better FR which can go out to 30-50kHz?
I think a FostexFT17H would LOOK really cool but what am I gaining over Dayton ND16FA-6 5/8" Neodymium Dome Tweeter?
Thanks
1) High, 100dB, sensitivity.
- But my speaker is only 85dB so would have to pad it down.
2) What is a horn super tweeter's diaphragm made from?
- Is it paper or metal?
- How well will it match the tonality, speed, and detail of a high quality paper driver like Scan Speak? I.E. I don't like a metal tweeter with a poly or paper woofer as they sound different.
3) Better off-axis dispersion?
4) Better resolution?
5) Better FR which can go out to 30-50kHz?
I think a FostexFT17H would LOOK really cool but what am I gaining over Dayton ND16FA-6 5/8" Neodymium Dome Tweeter?
Thanks
sounds like fun, I know
and, been there myself
but have to say, your assumptions might be based on misunderstanding
and I read now you say a supertweeter instead of a dome tweeter
I may know what you try to say, and yet I'm not sure
would like to know which speaker you try to improve
and maybe some info about the rest of what you use
and, been there myself
but have to say, your assumptions might be based on misunderstanding
and I read now you say a supertweeter instead of a dome tweeter
I may know what you try to say, and yet I'm not sure
would like to know which speaker you try to improve
and maybe some info about the rest of what you use
That's what I am thinking.
Single driver speaker which is flat on-axis up to 7kHz and flat off-axis up to 4kHz.
ah, ok ... then maybe
funny, but I was thinking a fullrange might be one of the few that could do very well with a super tweet 😉
but question is, which one
I would suggest to try an old style 1.5" cone tweeter 🙂
and maybe even two in series (back to back)
Hi,
A horn is directive and can add the top end without completely
changing the top end power response. A dome run at at a lower
level than the main driver and and a lower frequency can fill in
the off axis response and extend the treble. YMMV but the
ND16 could be made to work well with a simple series cap,
IMO with a nominal 1st order x/o point of around 5KHz,
or higher, you need to experiment with cap values.
That padding would be needed @ 85dB is dubious for the ND16,
unless the whole thing also has an added BS correction filter.
Compared to the super smooth ND20 the topend kick is good
for older ears, even if its not really right based on paper specs.
Forget about anything 25KHz+, it simply doesn't matter.
rgds, sreten.
See tests here : http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/
A horn is directive and can add the top end without completely
changing the top end power response. A dome run at at a lower
level than the main driver and and a lower frequency can fill in
the off axis response and extend the treble. YMMV but the
ND16 could be made to work well with a simple series cap,
IMO with a nominal 1st order x/o point of around 5KHz,
or higher, you need to experiment with cap values.
That padding would be needed @ 85dB is dubious for the ND16,
unless the whole thing also has an added BS correction filter.
Compared to the super smooth ND20 the topend kick is good
for older ears, even if its not really right based on paper specs.
Forget about anything 25KHz+, it simply doesn't matter.
rgds, sreten.
See tests here : http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/
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^^that Peavey is Fountek NeoCD2.0 - A really really good ribbon, Zaph-approved! Nice price (50%)!
Hi Sreten. Thanks for the link. The Seas 27TFFNCG ($32) looks super nice.
Do you know what the cone material is for a horn supertweeter?
Hi Adason and Juhazi. I like ribbon tweeters but how well would they blend with a cone driver? Unless I had a Raidho which is about the only application that people say they integrate seamlessly.
That is bad. So why would anyone want to use such a design?
Do you know what the cone material is for a horn supertweeter?
Why is that?
To get the blending of the drivers right?
Hi Adason and Juhazi. I like ribbon tweeters but how well would they blend with a cone driver? Unless I had a Raidho which is about the only application that people say they integrate seamlessly.
"I like ribbon tweeters but how well would they blend with a cone driver?"
I don't hear anything special. Their spl response curve is very different from domes, thy need different xo. They can play to 30-40kHz but where can we find such signal?
The tweeter must be very very close to the mid to make them blend. Also often a very deep xo is better. Delay and phase should match well too.
It is not at all easy to add a (super)tweeter. Most cases will end to be worse than original (interference bumps and dips), just louder.
fullrange -------\
fr+tweeter ok ----------
fr+T bad ------<><
I don't hear anything special. Their spl response curve is very different from domes, thy need different xo. They can play to 30-40kHz but where can we find such signal?
The tweeter must be very very close to the mid to make them blend. Also often a very deep xo is better. Delay and phase should match well too.
It is not at all easy to add a (super)tweeter. Most cases will end to be worse than original (interference bumps and dips), just louder.
fullrange -------\
fr+tweeter ok ----------
fr+T bad ------<><
Hi,
because older ears lose the top end :
And that topend kick will sound fine to older ears.
Also note it will level off with the right sort of cap value.
rgds, sreten.
"Supertweeter" is just a marketing term.
Horn diaphragms can be made from various metals, plastics or even paper.
Horns have varying degrees of directivity, from very wide to very narrow.
Some are wide to VHF, others start out wide and go very narrow at HF.
If your ears are lacking in high frequency, but your listening partner is not, narrow HF directivity could allow you to hear the boosted HF without upsetting your partner's ears, assuming you sit in the "sweet" (hot) spot.
Seamless integration requires proper crossover design and matching dispersion at the crossover point, a ribbon may or may not work "seamlessly" with your single driver at 7K.
A word of warning for anyone considering adding tweeters with rising response to compensate for age related hearing loss:
Even though you no longer can hear above X frequency (for 57 year old me X is about 15,000 Hz) your hearing still can be damaged by loud levels above X frequencies, so be careful.
I found that out first hand when doing HF tests above my range of hearing in doing experiments in posts #179 #182 to this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/210914-what-benefits-adding-hf-driver-7khz-up-18.html
My tinnitus (ringing of the ears) persisted for some time after mixing tones in the 20,000 Hz range.
Art
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Hi,
The tweeter I posted will not damage your hearing in
any way used as a so called "supertweeter" with a FR.
Seamless integration is a moot point when your just
adding a tweeter in parallel at a x/o point well beyond
that dictated by driver spacing. Off axis fill is basically
the bigger problem your fixing than on axis response.
Conversely using a horn is different kettle of fish.
Needs to be brought in 2nd order at driver roll-off.
rgds, sreten.
The tweeter I posted will not damage your hearing in
any way used as a so called "supertweeter" with a FR.
Seamless integration is a moot point when your just
adding a tweeter in parallel at a x/o point well beyond
that dictated by driver spacing. Off axis fill is basically
the bigger problem your fixing than on axis response.
Conversely using a horn is different kettle of fish.
Needs to be brought in 2nd order at driver roll-off.
rgds, sreten.
Sreten,
Tweeters don't cause hearing damage, people seeking excessive HF SPL they can't hear may cause hearing damage.
I would agree that a moderate sensitivity extended tweeter without boosted top end won't cause any problems, and a speaker rolling off at 7000 definitely could use a tweeter.
Though after testing my father's hearing before he passed away, I get to look forward to the day when adding anything above 7000 Hz will be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike..
Art (another day, another decibel) Welter
Thanks for the graph Sreten. Especially after seeing this, I would take the Dayton ND20FB ($8) or Seas 27TFFNCG ($32) if I wanted to go pricey.
I did some checking into the Fostex supertweeters. Specifically the Fostex FT96H and the considerably cheaper Fostex FT17H Horn Super Tweeter
These both use a metal diaphragm so I am concerned on how well tonally they would blend with a paper woofer. I was told:
1) They are NOT directive and have at least as good dispersion as a dome tweeter. I would be okay with beaming as:
-- a) The woofer will also be beaming so this would cut down on differences in off-axis response
and blending problems
-- b) I listen on axis anyhow so off axis doesn't matter - other than the reflective effects.
2) MUST use a high pass filter, preferably over 8kHz, or they will burn out.
3) Not really made to be crossed over as low a 6kHz, even though the spec sheet says otherwise.
4) Super high efficiency allows them to be reduced in output as you cannot increase output. But dome tweeters are plenty high in efficiency so they can also be brought down to match the woofer. So that point is mute IMHO.
So I am not really sure what advantage they would offer my application over a standard dome tweeter other than they look really cool.
Furthermore the 3.4" diameter of the FT17H would force a further distance from the woofer than the 1.14" diameter of the Dayton ND20FB ($8). As Juhazi said
I was hoping they would offer performance closer to a ribbon than dome as they are more made just for super high frequencies.
Thoughts?
I did some checking into the Fostex supertweeters. Specifically the Fostex FT96H and the considerably cheaper Fostex FT17H Horn Super Tweeter
These both use a metal diaphragm so I am concerned on how well tonally they would blend with a paper woofer. I was told:
1) They are NOT directive and have at least as good dispersion as a dome tweeter. I would be okay with beaming as:
-- a) The woofer will also be beaming so this would cut down on differences in off-axis response
and blending problems
-- b) I listen on axis anyhow so off axis doesn't matter - other than the reflective effects.
2) MUST use a high pass filter, preferably over 8kHz, or they will burn out.
3) Not really made to be crossed over as low a 6kHz, even though the spec sheet says otherwise.
4) Super high efficiency allows them to be reduced in output as you cannot increase output. But dome tweeters are plenty high in efficiency so they can also be brought down to match the woofer. So that point is mute IMHO.
So I am not really sure what advantage they would offer my application over a standard dome tweeter other than they look really cool.
Furthermore the 3.4" diameter of the FT17H would force a further distance from the woofer than the 1.14" diameter of the Dayton ND20FB ($8). As Juhazi said
I was hoping they would offer performance closer to a ribbon than dome as they are more made just for super high frequencies.
Thoughts?
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Sreten, your graph of the Dayton Audio ND16FA-6 5/8" Neodymium Dome Tweeter got me inspired to do some testing. I have this tweeter in my speaker. The volume is adjusted by a L-Pad Attenuator 50W Stereo 8 Ohm and high pass is from, I think (didn't take the speaker apart), Dayton Audio PMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor
Just off the cuff, no serious documentation but I found 3 surprising things:
1) I thought the 3.0uf cap was supposed to cut off all high frequencies above 11kHz.
- But I was getting output at 6.3 kHz using Stereophile's test tone discs. This was easily shown by turning the L pad up and down and seeing the contribution made by the ND16.
- Could that be because the ND16 is 6 ohm and the L pad is 8 ohms?
- Is it because the cap makes it a 1st order where the attenuation STARTS at 11kHZ and rolls off at -6 / octave below the 11kHz?
2) The drop in volume was VERY sharp. More like 3dB per foot than 3dB per meter.
3) Like weltersys, while I could not hear it, the ND16 was putting out 80dB at 20kHz and after listening for a short while with my ear up the the tweeter, my ear started to hurt.
So I conclude:
1) It is better to have some natural sound from 6.3-16kHz.
- Horn supertweeters are not good below 8-10kHz.
2) That blends well tonally with a paper driver.
- Supertweeters have a metal dome.
3) I do not want HF above 16kHz because I can't hear it and all it does is damage my hearing.
- But A supertweeter's strong selling point is that it goes out of the audible range,
4) No need for 100dB efficient horn.
- My speakers are ~85dB efficient so any tweeter above that can be attenuated in volume just fine.
Just off the cuff, no serious documentation but I found 3 surprising things:
1) I thought the 3.0uf cap was supposed to cut off all high frequencies above 11kHz.
- But I was getting output at 6.3 kHz using Stereophile's test tone discs. This was easily shown by turning the L pad up and down and seeing the contribution made by the ND16.
- Could that be because the ND16 is 6 ohm and the L pad is 8 ohms?
- Is it because the cap makes it a 1st order where the attenuation STARTS at 11kHZ and rolls off at -6 / octave below the 11kHz?
2) The drop in volume was VERY sharp. More like 3dB per foot than 3dB per meter.
3) Like weltersys, while I could not hear it, the ND16 was putting out 80dB at 20kHz and after listening for a short while with my ear up the the tweeter, my ear started to hurt.
So I conclude:
1) It is better to have some natural sound from 6.3-16kHz.
- Horn supertweeters are not good below 8-10kHz.
2) That blends well tonally with a paper driver.
- Supertweeters have a metal dome.
3) I do not want HF above 16kHz because I can't hear it and all it does is damage my hearing.
- But A supertweeter's strong selling point is that it goes out of the audible range,
4) No need for 100dB efficient horn.
- My speakers are ~85dB efficient so any tweeter above that can be attenuated in volume just fine.
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Sound drops off at 6 dB for each doubling of distance in free space.
In a room, reverberation keeps the level from dropping much past the "critical distance".
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