I was looking at purchasing one of the phoenix gold Power Grid capacitors to install into my stereo, and when i was looking at the Tantrum version, i noticed it looks like a bunch of smaller capacitors that could possibly be mounted to a circuit board,
Why don't we do that by ourselves and we can make whatever shapes, and sizes we desired??
As well as know how big our capacitors are?
Why don't we do that by ourselves and we can make whatever shapes, and sizes we desired??
As well as know how big our capacitors are?
(I'm not sure if you're talking about actually fabricating capacitors or just combining them to make new values.)
I guess it depends on what kind of capacitors you need or want, and of what values, and how much parasitic inductance you can tolerate in them.
Some people have tried rolling their own film capacitors. But if you can't roll them with offset/protruding foil edges so you can make and connect endcaps that contact each entire edge of the two combined foil rolls, and instead you have to connect to the ends of the foils only, then you also get a lot of inductance. And large film capacitance values are more difficult to make and are very physically large. And I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to make an electrolytic, or a ceramic, or most of the other types. However, for small pF capacitance values, you can just chop off a piece of coax (hopefully with teflon dielectric) and connect the center conductor and shield on one end only, as the leads, to make a cap, although you'd need a capacitance meter to be able to trim it to the right length to get the pF value you wanted. Teflon dielectric would give a very high-quality capacitor, with very low dielectric absorption.
As far as just combining values using multiple capacitors of any capacitor type, in parallel or series, in order to make other values, you can definitely do that, easily, whether or not you then make them look like a single package.
But keep in mind that added lead length and/or larger total body length increases parasitic inductance, which is often undesirable.
However, paralleling smaller caps to make larger-value ones does effectively put the ESRs (equivalent series resistances) in parallel, and usually the net result can have a significantly-smaller ESR than one single larger-value cap (e.g. two caps of 1/2 the desired value, in parallel, gives the desired value but only 1/2 the ESR, three 1/3-value caps in parallel gives 1/3 the ESR, etc), and the lower ESR can often be very desirable.
Cheers,
Tom
I guess it depends on what kind of capacitors you need or want, and of what values, and how much parasitic inductance you can tolerate in them.
Some people have tried rolling their own film capacitors. But if you can't roll them with offset/protruding foil edges so you can make and connect endcaps that contact each entire edge of the two combined foil rolls, and instead you have to connect to the ends of the foils only, then you also get a lot of inductance. And large film capacitance values are more difficult to make and are very physically large. And I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to make an electrolytic, or a ceramic, or most of the other types. However, for small pF capacitance values, you can just chop off a piece of coax (hopefully with teflon dielectric) and connect the center conductor and shield on one end only, as the leads, to make a cap, although you'd need a capacitance meter to be able to trim it to the right length to get the pF value you wanted. Teflon dielectric would give a very high-quality capacitor, with very low dielectric absorption.
As far as just combining values using multiple capacitors of any capacitor type, in parallel or series, in order to make other values, you can definitely do that, easily, whether or not you then make them look like a single package.
But keep in mind that added lead length and/or larger total body length increases parasitic inductance, which is often undesirable.
However, paralleling smaller caps to make larger-value ones does effectively put the ESRs (equivalent series resistances) in parallel, and usually the net result can have a significantly-smaller ESR than one single larger-value cap (e.g. two caps of 1/2 the desired value, in parallel, gives the desired value but only 1/2 the ESR, three 1/3-value caps in parallel gives 1/3 the ESR, etc), and the lower ESR can often be very desirable.
Cheers,
Tom
Adding capacitors together is exactly what i was thinking about doing. If you look at the phoenix gold Powergrid. Which i believe is the trantum version of a 15 farad capacitor? inbetween the fins you can see what looks like the tops of smaller capacitors, but they are piled inside of the case!
i think rolling my own film capacitor sounds like quite a bit of work, to make a functional one.
I think stacking capacitors and making a single package would be really cool, because you could even make a somewhat small one, and well over double what capacitors are in the amplifier as a 12 volt reserve before it enters the power supply. Or in some cases, like the power grid, a big supply, for the whole system that is a run away, but not quite big enough to make a huge alternator or second battery a necessity.
But i dont know what parasitic loss, or the ESR values that your talking about are, or mean. I dont know why a lower ESR is a desirable trait? and why is it that i need to tolerate parasitic inductance?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a...Gzly3cMwe3nwQ/cC/f=0/ps=50/r=0/rx=550/ry=400/
Theres the picture im talking about, where you can see capacitors inside it.
If you look at more pictures of it, it even has a dedicated slow charge, so that you dont shock the system when you install it.
http://www.clublexus.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Phoenix_Gold_006-r.jpg
There is a picture of the Power core, the titanium version. There were also some versions of this powercore that had the RMD plug. The manual also explains how the slow charge works, it has a 1 ohm resistor, that slowly fills the capacitor inside, and then you can install it, and not have an explosion, where your moving 10 farads instantly as soon as the circuit is completed. It also has 3 leds that light up, and it turns on the voltage readout through the remote turn on lead that you connect to it, and i think that the power core is a really cool idea, especially since it is a distribution block, big capacitor, as well as a remote voltage display, and something nice to look at!
http://download.phoenixphorum.com/Manuals/Accessories/powercore20_manual.pdf
I think building something like this would be really cool, as well as a bit more cost effective then finding one of these big phoenix gold capacitors
i think rolling my own film capacitor sounds like quite a bit of work, to make a functional one.
I think stacking capacitors and making a single package would be really cool, because you could even make a somewhat small one, and well over double what capacitors are in the amplifier as a 12 volt reserve before it enters the power supply. Or in some cases, like the power grid, a big supply, for the whole system that is a run away, but not quite big enough to make a huge alternator or second battery a necessity.
But i dont know what parasitic loss, or the ESR values that your talking about are, or mean. I dont know why a lower ESR is a desirable trait? and why is it that i need to tolerate parasitic inductance?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a...Gzly3cMwe3nwQ/cC/f=0/ps=50/r=0/rx=550/ry=400/
Theres the picture im talking about, where you can see capacitors inside it.
If you look at more pictures of it, it even has a dedicated slow charge, so that you dont shock the system when you install it.
http://www.clublexus.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Phoenix_Gold_006-r.jpg
There is a picture of the Power core, the titanium version. There were also some versions of this powercore that had the RMD plug. The manual also explains how the slow charge works, it has a 1 ohm resistor, that slowly fills the capacitor inside, and then you can install it, and not have an explosion, where your moving 10 farads instantly as soon as the circuit is completed. It also has 3 leds that light up, and it turns on the voltage readout through the remote turn on lead that you connect to it, and i think that the power core is a really cool idea, especially since it is a distribution block, big capacitor, as well as a remote voltage display, and something nice to look at!
http://download.phoenixphorum.com/Manuals/Accessories/powercore20_manual.pdf
I think building something like this would be really cool, as well as a bit more cost effective then finding one of these big phoenix gold capacitors
I am familiar with the carbon polymer cap banks your looking at, and yes they do combine lots of little and very affordable multi-farad 2.5 volt caps together to achieve the desired ESR and farad ratings your looking into. Something you should know is that building one of these while simple in appearance requires some fair knowledge of cap design and application. One of these banks your looking at are known for burning up inside. And I am only quoting info from a inside source about this. In particular one of those pictured is well know for failing in a flaming way. This is why they don't make them anymore.
If your into big caps and want to bypass all the hype and hoopla of the car audio industry please google search Maxwell capacitors and visit their web-site and get some of the real scoop and info from a cap manufacturer. Oh they also make 15 volt caps for car applications off the shelf straight from the manufacturer of the cap themselves with no middle man adding 60% to the price.
And before you venture into building your own please read up on banked capacitance and the need for voltage drop control across large banks like the ones you mentioned. Maxwell offers both active and passive V drop control on all their products they make. Here again unless your into the technology and the pure physics of the state of the art in this area building your own could be very hazardous. Caps like to vent and sometimes explode when treated wrong, so be very careful with them and follow all the safety precautions the manufacturer and your common sense tells you to....hope this helps some...🙂
If your into big caps and want to bypass all the hype and hoopla of the car audio industry please google search Maxwell capacitors and visit their web-site and get some of the real scoop and info from a cap manufacturer. Oh they also make 15 volt caps for car applications off the shelf straight from the manufacturer of the cap themselves with no middle man adding 60% to the price.
And before you venture into building your own please read up on banked capacitance and the need for voltage drop control across large banks like the ones you mentioned. Maxwell offers both active and passive V drop control on all their products they make. Here again unless your into the technology and the pure physics of the state of the art in this area building your own could be very hazardous. Caps like to vent and sometimes explode when treated wrong, so be very careful with them and follow all the safety precautions the manufacturer and your common sense tells you to....hope this helps some...🙂
Which i just researched and was hearing the same thing! about these phoenix gold capacitors failing.
bypassing audio hype is not something i would be against, because i have seen that the car audio scene likes to hike up the prices because its so 'valuable' to your stereo. And i will look into Maxwell, i know industrial stuff is quite a bit cheaper then going through an audio company,
I know if i were to build one it takes care in knowing what your doing, and how to set it up, and i would be confident in not hurting anything, i just dont know off the top of my head what changing ESR or what the parasitic loss that was mentioned previously means, and how i avoid, or obtain these things.
When my stereo reaches high volume levels, the factory charging system in my truck doesn't quite suffice, but i dont think its far enough away from being strong enough to spend a bunch of money on an alternator, or second battery.
bypassing audio hype is not something i would be against, because i have seen that the car audio scene likes to hike up the prices because its so 'valuable' to your stereo. And i will look into Maxwell, i know industrial stuff is quite a bit cheaper then going through an audio company,
I know if i were to build one it takes care in knowing what your doing, and how to set it up, and i would be confident in not hurting anything, i just dont know off the top of my head what changing ESR or what the parasitic loss that was mentioned previously means, and how i avoid, or obtain these things.
When my stereo reaches high volume levels, the factory charging system in my truck doesn't quite suffice, but i dont think its far enough away from being strong enough to spend a bunch of money on an alternator, or second battery.
The ESR can be seen as a resistor in series with a perfect capacitor. The ESR of many of the bling capacitors makes them completely useless.
To build a large capacitor bank (that will generally be useless), it will cost as much or more than the right alternator.
A battery does absolutely nothing until the voltage drops below ~12.5v and it doesn't deliver significant current until the voltage drops even more.
The only practical device that can provide the current and voltage required by the amplifiers is an alternator. All other devices are band-aids for a poorly designed system.
To build a large capacitor bank (that will generally be useless), it will cost as much or more than the right alternator.
A battery does absolutely nothing until the voltage drops below ~12.5v and it doesn't deliver significant current until the voltage drops even more.
The only practical device that can provide the current and voltage required by the amplifiers is an alternator. All other devices are band-aids for a poorly designed system.
So if my investment should go into an alternator, why are capactiors so accepted in the audio scene?
My opinion........they "show" better. They have "bling" factor......an alternator under the hood doesn't. Caps do have their place for sure.
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Marketing hype. Most reputable shops have stopped selling capacitors because they typically make no difference.
Outside of the amp for audio, very little. They're needed inside the amp and the engineers who designed the amps have used what's necessary for the amp to work properly.
For competitions where you can use banks of 50-500 farads and only burp the system for a second, they may be good for a few tenths of a decibel but that's not going to be of any use for a system that you use for music.
For competitions where you can use banks of 50-500 farads and only burp the system for a second, they may be good for a few tenths of a decibel but that's not going to be of any use for a system that you use for music.
But why is it you can put larger capacitors inside the amplifier and make it preform better?
Also can't you use them to help voltage fluctuation above 12 volts? Like a small storage of 14volt power?
Also can't you use them to help voltage fluctuation above 12 volts? Like a small storage of 14volt power?
You cannot improve the performance of an amp by increasing the value of the internal capacitors. In most amps, you could cut the value of the rail caps in half and you would hear no difference.
The capacitor will never have more voltage than the charging system.
The capacitor will never have more voltage than the charging system.
The capacitors in the amp are recharged approximately 60,000 times a second. The capacitors only have to fill the tiny gaps between pulses. In a car amp, that's all they do. If the power supply can't hold the voltage, the caps won't maintain the voltage. If you want an amp that doesn't let the rail voltage sag for any reason, buy one with a stiffly regulated power supply.
How large of a pulse can the capacitors hold before it will start to effect the power supply in the amplifier?
By definition a capacitor of 1Farad will change voltage/potential by 1V when fed with 1Ampere for 1second.
Let's start off with a 10F cap charged to 13Vdc. Let's extract 10A from it.
How long can it supply 10A until the voltage has dropped to 12V?
Now compare the performance of a 12V battery that has been recently charged and in good condition. How long can it supply 10A for before the available voltage drops by 1Volt?
How many 10F caps can you buy to equate to the price of that battery?
Now if you were to change from lead/acid to any of the newer technology rechargeable batteries, could the performance be improved further for the same expenditure?
Let's start off with a 10F cap charged to 13Vdc. Let's extract 10A from it.
How long can it supply 10A until the voltage has dropped to 12V?
Now compare the performance of a 12V battery that has been recently charged and in good condition. How long can it supply 10A for before the available voltage drops by 1Volt?
How many 10F caps can you buy to equate to the price of that battery?
Now if you were to change from lead/acid to any of the newer technology rechargeable batteries, could the performance be improved further for the same expenditure?
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Internally (to the amplifier), the capacitors are charged with pulses. There is no 'pulse' stored by the capacitor. The capacitor works to maintain/smooth the DC voltage produced by the power supply. If there were no capacitors (or insufficient capacitance), the voltage between the power supply pulses would drop a few volts for a few microseconds (millionths of a second). With the capacitance provided in most amps, there is no visible drop in voltage between pulses (as viewed on an oscilloscope) from the power supply. Even when the capacitance is half of the original capacitance, there is no high frequency ripple.
Lots of people claim lots of things when they make modifications to amplifiers. They somehow believe that they're more intelligent or better educated than someone that has been designing amplifiers from the ground up for many years. I was one of those people until I tested (with an open mind) many of the variations on circuits. I found out that the people designing amplifiers, for the most part, are very good at what they do and it's very difficult to make an amp sound better than it does when working properly (in the OEM configuration).
Lots of people claim lots of things when they make modifications to amplifiers. They somehow believe that they're more intelligent or better educated than someone that has been designing amplifiers from the ground up for many years. I was one of those people until I tested (with an open mind) many of the variations on circuits. I found out that the people designing amplifiers, for the most part, are very good at what they do and it's very difficult to make an amp sound better than it does when working properly (in the OEM configuration).
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