Hello everyone,
This is my first post and second speaker build. I am new to speaker building and self taught through YouTube and forums like this one. I have everything planned out for this build and most construction is done. But a voice is nagging me, “dude don’t wreck all your equipment”. Please take a look at my idea and let me know if you think I am taking unnecessary risk. As this is mostly a for fun learning project I am less interested I how it will sound ... of course I have high expectations. But bad sound is fine as long as the components can be recycled into other projects.
For a bit of background my late uncle was a serious audiophile. He had a pair of Martin Logan electrostatic speakers in his listening room. My idea is to DIY a similar look and feel using Dayton exciters. I made a prototype that I love but the speakers lacked high range, so in this new iteration I am adding tweeters.
Drivers:
Dayton Audio DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm Exciter 20W 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio DAEX32QMB-4 Quad Feet Mega Bass 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar Tweeter, 80W
Crossover:
Dayton Audio XO2W-3K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 3,000 Hz
DSP:
MiniDS nano AVR-HD
Amp/receiver:
Yamaha RX v585
Putting it together:
The two 4 ohm exciters are wired in series to create an 8 ohm load to match the tweeter. Both exciters are attached to a single XPS sheet.
I am worried about exceeding the power of my amp. Exciters pull 20w, 40w and the tweeter is 80w, total 140w. I have not found mention of a reliable way to determine real world power draw from multiple drivers. I don’t listen at incredible volume but want to be on the safe side. Bi wiring is probably a good idea, yes, no?
Do I need to add in protection for the tweeter? L bar, resistor, capacitor something else?
I will EQ the system with the nano AVR. I hope it will sound good but mostly just don’t want to blow up the expensive planar tweeter or my receiver.
This has been a great project and distraction. I am always learning more on the physical build side and electronics. If all goes well I will post full details of the build.
Thank you,
Eric
This is my first post and second speaker build. I am new to speaker building and self taught through YouTube and forums like this one. I have everything planned out for this build and most construction is done. But a voice is nagging me, “dude don’t wreck all your equipment”. Please take a look at my idea and let me know if you think I am taking unnecessary risk. As this is mostly a for fun learning project I am less interested I how it will sound ... of course I have high expectations. But bad sound is fine as long as the components can be recycled into other projects.
For a bit of background my late uncle was a serious audiophile. He had a pair of Martin Logan electrostatic speakers in his listening room. My idea is to DIY a similar look and feel using Dayton exciters. I made a prototype that I love but the speakers lacked high range, so in this new iteration I am adding tweeters.
Drivers:
Dayton Audio DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm Exciter 20W 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio DAEX32QMB-4 Quad Feet Mega Bass 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar Tweeter, 80W
Crossover:
Dayton Audio XO2W-3K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 3,000 Hz
DSP:
MiniDS nano AVR-HD
Amp/receiver:
Yamaha RX v585
Putting it together:
The two 4 ohm exciters are wired in series to create an 8 ohm load to match the tweeter. Both exciters are attached to a single XPS sheet.
I am worried about exceeding the power of my amp. Exciters pull 20w, 40w and the tweeter is 80w, total 140w. I have not found mention of a reliable way to determine real world power draw from multiple drivers. I don’t listen at incredible volume but want to be on the safe side. Bi wiring is probably a good idea, yes, no?
Do I need to add in protection for the tweeter? L bar, resistor, capacitor something else?
I will EQ the system with the nano AVR. I hope it will sound good but mostly just don’t want to blow up the expensive planar tweeter or my receiver.
This has been a great project and distraction. I am always learning more on the physical build side and electronics. If all goes well I will post full details of the build.
Thank you,
Eric
Hi Eric and welcome to the forum!
In a typical two-way speaker system, the tweeter will not see more than 10 to 20% of the total power delivered to the loudspeaker system.
The two exciters in series will each share half of the power e.g. if you apply 40W, each exciter will see 20W regardless of their published power rating.
Bi-wiring simply means that the low pass section of the crossover is split from the high pass section. The tweeter is protected by the capacitor in the high pass section. An L-pad is used to reduce the level of the tweeter if it is louder than the bass exciters.
P.S. You do NOT simply add all the power ratings together!
Last edited:
The title itself and the first two periods made me jump quickly to this reply, missing the content of the post.
What can I say?
Go ahead...and report!
🙄
Oh no, that's not fair!
But else, what can I say?
Exciters...uhhhmm...A speaker without the cone and the ext suspension, right?
A tweeter...a cone/former all together (butterfly) for lightness.
So, this kind of "speaker" should put the cone of the woofer and its ext susp.on a "table" or anything, and let it radiate.
Probably this solves all the troubles and the thousand/millions posts on the subject: which woofer, and what box? Sealed? Ported?
Dunno if the crossover part is debatable, because...
Why? Because the acoustic load is less manageable and omitting the cone ( perfet shape or near ) and the external suspension- which is part of the double spring oscillating device controlled by change in magneto/electrical force etc etc- and the passband behaviour/Bandwidth Oh My oh My! 😀
What can I say?
Go ahead...and report!
🙄
Oh no, that's not fair!
But else, what can I say?
Exciters...uhhhmm...A speaker without the cone and the ext suspension, right?
A tweeter...a cone/former all together (butterfly) for lightness.
So, this kind of "speaker" should put the cone of the woofer and its ext susp.on a "table" or anything, and let it radiate.
Probably this solves all the troubles and the thousand/millions posts on the subject: which woofer, and what box? Sealed? Ported?
Dunno if the crossover part is debatable, because...
Why? Because the acoustic load is less manageable and omitting the cone ( perfet shape or near ) and the external suspension- which is part of the double spring oscillating device controlled by change in magneto/electrical force etc etc- and the passband behaviour/Bandwidth Oh My oh My! 😀
This is certainly an 'interesting' combination and Eric himself has indicated he is prepared for disappointment!
He's obviously on an upward learning curve as far as combining speaker drivers is concerned. Perhaps we may be able to give him valuable guidance. 🙂
Here's links to the Dayton components for those interested in this thread:
DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm 20W 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
DAEX32QMB-4 Quad Feet Mega Bass 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
PT2C-8 Planar Tweeter Specification Sheet
Dayton Audio XO2W-3K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 3,000 Hz
Thank you Galu and picowallspeaker. You are building my confidence.
I was originally inspired by YouTube videos on the Tech Ingredients channel, linked here.
YouTube
An exciters is basically a voice coil without any cone. Instead it acts on the surface to which it is attached. When attached to a panel, sound is emitted equally from the front and back creating an open and realistic sound. Because of this and other factors, predicting their behavior is right out the window. Different surface size, density, composition all affect frequency response, etc. Folks have played around with numerous material combinations (I should really link to the discussion, and will do so later) and cost vs performance seems to land on Extruded Polystyrene (XPS), a Dupont product.
I selected the Dayton planar tweeter because it has a sealed back. No need for an enclosure at all. The exciter panel is mounting with compliant hardware, it is essentially suspended.
Tonight I will to optimize exciter placement on the panel using REW and a calibrated microphone.
Thank you again, Eric
I was originally inspired by YouTube videos on the Tech Ingredients channel, linked here.
YouTube
An exciters is basically a voice coil without any cone. Instead it acts on the surface to which it is attached. When attached to a panel, sound is emitted equally from the front and back creating an open and realistic sound. Because of this and other factors, predicting their behavior is right out the window. Different surface size, density, composition all affect frequency response, etc. Folks have played around with numerous material combinations (I should really link to the discussion, and will do so later) and cost vs performance seems to land on Extruded Polystyrene (XPS), a Dupont product.
I selected the Dayton planar tweeter because it has a sealed back. No need for an enclosure at all. The exciter panel is mounting with compliant hardware, it is essentially suspended.
Tonight I will to optimize exciter placement on the panel using REW and a calibrated microphone.
Thank you again, Eric
Very interesting. Looks like the large, extended panel behind the radiators may be a key element. My experience with speakers is limited. Yes
Keep us posted Eric!
I hope you now realise that you cannot exceed the power of your amp by connecting speakers with a high power rating. Your speaker combination will certainly not 'pull' 140W from the amp. The power supplied by the amp is simply determined by the setting of the volume control. The effective load of your finished speaker will be 8 ohm, so will not task your amplifier.
P.S. Given your present level of knowledge, I would not recommend that you consider bi-wiring. Use the crossover network as intended. If the tweeter is too loud then we can give advice regarding adding an L-pad - either a variable level control or a pair of fixed resistors.
I hope you now realise that you cannot exceed the power of your amp by connecting speakers with a high power rating. Your speaker combination will certainly not 'pull' 140W from the amp. The power supplied by the amp is simply determined by the setting of the volume control. The effective load of your finished speaker will be 8 ohm, so will not task your amplifier.
P.S. Given your present level of knowledge, I would not recommend that you consider bi-wiring. Use the crossover network as intended. If the tweeter is too loud then we can give advice regarding adding an L-pad - either a variable level control or a pair of fixed resistors.
It's good because, other than rationalizing the whole circuit, it puts you also in the send/return/earth/GND problem solving 😕 What problems ?
Oh that's ok. It's realistic, not real. You say it
From memory, I've heard some two panels attached in the style you mentioned plus a subwoofer. The PTC ( little yellow pastiches) interrupt the circuit at max volume. The music was House, it was in a shop...well, the cause of absence of treble is clear, given the max resonant freq. a table exhibits, be it any material but of a certain size ( some magnitudes above quantum physics dimensions ), and I guarantee that the drums and the synths played fairly well with the right rise-attack-(sustain and release) but far from real ( imagine the violin replicated by a table...)
In the context of the quality of music reproduction, the appropriate word to use is 'realistic'.
Realistic: Representing things in a way that is accurate and true to life.
Real: Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact, not imagined or supposed.
So when you are listening to a piece of music reproduced, your aim is to have it sound realistic? I'd go for the real, for real !I'd go to something exotic same as the table/exciter but regular piece of transducer.
That's because I was wandering in the Madisound catalogue of "about" 3" midranges, and I saw the inverted cone from Peerless, same as the bigger brothers.
Model is the Peerless GBS85N25PR03-04
Of course it needs a woofer and a tweeter and it requires HP and LP for about 0.3-3 kHz BW.
But I hate 4Ω designs, too much heat on the amp side!
😕 Going by the dictionary definition of the word 'realistic', that is precisely my aim!
The only time I would describe music as 'real' is when it is live i.e. not reproduced.
Let's agree to stick to the practicalities of the project. It's self-evident that Eric has decided to set himself a challenge! 🙂
Same here.
The very best 5 Million Dollar Hi Fi system in the World does not sound like a live performance.
At least once a year I go to Teatro Colón, our Buenos Aires Opera house, just close my eyes and listen.
NO, repeat NO amp + speaker combination goes even close.
Nowadays theaters have many scattered panels
OP might want to see and get inspiration
This thread might become
"What's the last opera-concert you have attended?"
Piano solos
quartets
medioeval
jazz solo-duo-trio-quartet-quintet-sextet-band ?
OP might want to see and get inspiration
This thread might become
"What's the last opera-concert you have attended?"
Piano solos
quartets
medioeval
jazz solo-duo-trio-quartet-quintet-sextet-band ?
Many (most?) live concerts are reinforced with amps and speakers. You can easily reproduce that in your home to the extent your small room will let you reproduce it. In contrast, live sound without reinforcement is a pretty lofty goal.
Does live sound without reinforcement sound better? Maybe. That depends on the room where it's played, too. Also, live sound might just be different without necessarily being better. Personally, I don't prefer live sound because it's too loud for me.
Does live sound without reinforcement sound better? Maybe. That depends on the room where it's played, too. Also, live sound might just be different without necessarily being better. Personally, I don't prefer live sound because it's too loud for me.
In 1969, fibreglass 'mushrooms' were installed in the domed ceiling of The Royal Albert Hall in London in order to improve its acoustics.
Now, in 2019, its acoustics have been further improved by the installation of 465 loudspeakers so that every seat in the house now enjoys equal sound coverage - no matter whether you’re sitting in the Queen’s box, up in the Gallery, or down in the Arena!
This addition caters for the eclectic mix of of musical genres now performed in the famous hall - ranging from Nine Inch Nails to the London Symphony Orchestra!
Now, in 2019, its acoustics have been further improved by the installation of 465 loudspeakers so that every seat in the house now enjoys equal sound coverage - no matter whether you’re sitting in the Queen’s box, up in the Gallery, or down in the Arena!
This addition caters for the eclectic mix of of musical genres now performed in the famous hall - ranging from Nine Inch Nails to the London Symphony Orchestra!
Attachments
Floyd Toole discussed music halls in one of his videos available on YouTube. He identified the Musikverein in Vienna as one of the world's best music halls. He explained why the best room shape for music is what he calls the shoe box shape. The problem with the shoe box shape is that you can't fit a lot of seats into the hall. Ticket sales drive the large size and strange shapes of modern halls. Thus, he noted, each mega-hall is an expensive experiment in acoustics.
Yet another reason to not fetishize live music or hold it up as the gold standard. It's possible the concert hall you attend to hear live music sucks. If it's a sound reinforced concert, maybe the person running the audio sucks.
Yet another reason to not fetishize live music or hold it up as the gold standard. It's possible the concert hall you attend to hear live music sucks. If it's a sound reinforced concert, maybe the person running the audio sucks.
Attachments
Electrostates and exciters got a completely different working principle and will not sound similar in any way. An exciter can sound good but you will never get the same resolution and micro dynamics.
That doesn't work that way. That's a standard "universal" crossover and in no way fit for such an exotic combination of response, impedance and sound pressure level. You need to develop the crossover yourself, even a dsp will not help you if you can't measure.
That does not work. That's not how any of it works. Firstly, each exciter needs its own panel (and no, mounting the tweeter on it won't do any good either). To wire them in series you've added the inductance of both, resulting in a low pass filter - which explains why you don't have highs. Secondly, the exciters on the same sheet will cause interferences, resulting in peaks and dips.
No, that does not work that way. That's not how any of it works. Firstly, the drivers don't draw x power. The level of the amp/output voltage and impedance determine how much power will be put out. And the tweeter isn't 80W, that's the power would be for the whole spectrum while the tweeter is filtered, effectively leaving ~5-8W for the tweeter. That's not a bad thing, that's the same with every tweeter. If you'd give the tweeter (or any other non-pa tweeter) the actual 80W, it will burn through within a second.
Secondly, bi-wiring won't change anything since it's still on the same amp. If you want to change that, bi-amping is what you need. But there's no danger for the amp in any way, the distortion gets way too high at ~10W in the midrange. Not a problem though, even loud music within a room is usually below 1W for most speakers.
No. You need to pad the tweeter down by ~15-20dB because the exciters only got ~75-78dB, depending on the exciter and sheet it's mounted on. After the voltage divider there's less than a tenth of the power left, no danger of killing it unless you are doing something seriously wrong.
You won't get the system linear with an EQ, it can't fix the phase difference between the drivers.
Last edited:
Are you saying that putting an active device like a speaker driver in series with another has the same result as putting a fixed inductor in series?
Posts #11 and #12 in the linked thread suggest that the roll-off due to inductance when two drivers are connected in series is the same as when each is used as a single driver.
are loud speakers actualy inductors in series
- Status
- Not open for further replies.