It looks like Kartesian have really improved Le(x), Kms (x) and BL(x). So these are all good things, according to Klippel’s sources of distortion.
The ability to offers custom variations and custom is a nice touch for exclusivity; which is part of the high end ethos.
I mean, how do I distinguish my design from others when most of my customersdon’t believe in are still learning about measurements or how to interpret measurements?
A fancy new frame or fancy new cone material will always stand apart (and raise prices)
Even if good ol’ paper with a optimised geometry (paper cone with embossing for reinforcement) and a dust cap made of predominately glass fibre mixed with other materials for damping may be competitive with a fancy new material.
When you think of high sensitivity and high excursion, think of Kartesian!
The ability to offers custom variations and custom is a nice touch for exclusivity; which is part of the high end ethos.
I mean, how do I distinguish my design from others when most of my customers
A fancy new frame or fancy new cone material will always stand apart (and raise prices)
Even if good ol’ paper with a optimised geometry (paper cone with embossing for reinforcement) and a dust cap made of predominately glass fibre mixed with other materials for damping may be competitive with a fancy new material.
When you think of high sensitivity and high excursion, think of Kartesian!
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Now to send samples for independent testing to Erin @bikinpunk or Yevgeniy @HiFiCompass
So I finally had time to watch the video.
It's obviously a promotional video, nothing wrong with that.
That being said, for all people who want to understand BL(x), Kms(X), Le(x) and understanding those Klippel graphs, I think it's a great summary and a really good watch (plus saves me explaining it over an over again lol).
There are a few small detail here and there that I don't agree on, or are still kinda far fetched.
For example the transient is by definition the same as the frequency response.
Or in other words, a good "fast" transient, will result in a extended (and smooth) frequency range.
It's the same data, just represented in a different way.
Does that frequency response has to extend as far as possible?
Maybe, that totally depends on the context.
Dampening cone break-ups is always a good thing, mostly because certain break-ups reflect back into the distortion.
Bringing them out of the pass-band is another solution.
Also, the goal here (as well as with Purifi), is again just a full-range 2-way system.
Great, but it doesn't help does extremely destructive standing waves for frequencies (roughly) below 200Hz.
So for a system without ANY compromises, it feels a bit like a waste of resources and technology to me.
(Not even talking about the whole masking effect, but that's a totally different story all together)
That being said, I think what their 6,5 inch can do, is quite amazing.
Curious if they can physically reach 18-20mm within 20% (norm for subwoofers).
Still that would only give about 100dB or so when used as a subwoofer (-3dB @ 30Hz).
At this point I think it shows that there is only so much we can get out of a certain sized woofer.
In the end there are multiple ways to attack a problem.
I have never had any issues designing and selling multiple very compact 8 inch subwoofers for example.
Especially looking at the price as you rightfully so mentioned, the niche is getting smaller and smaller.
To unfortunate, I would REALLY like to see those progressive spiders in just ANY regular speaker for example.
If you know the underlying process, it's not that hard and expensive.
@tktran303
I said probably.
(meaning I could also be totally wrong)
Obviously I don't have numbers and even if I knew those numbers that would probably violating any NDA.
It's just a feeling based on experience from working in this field for about 15 years.
But there is also nothing wrong with producing in small quantities, so I don't understand the question?
I said probably.
(meaning I could also be totally wrong)
Obviously I don't have numbers and even if I knew those numbers that would probably violating any NDA.
It's just a feeling based on experience from working in this field for about 15 years.
But there is also nothing wrong with producing in small quantities, so I don't understand the question?
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Your response to another poster’s comment on pricing seemed to infer that it is related to low production quantity.
I’m not challenging you. I’m just not familiar with what low means, in this business of transducer manufacturing. Or when economies of scale can really drive prices down for the consumer.
I’m not challenging you. I’m just not familiar with what low means, in this business of transducer manufacturing. Or when economies of scale can really drive prices down for the consumer.
Yes, I said probably low quantities.
Maybe the word maybe was a better choice.
But the price of a product is not only proportional to its quality, but also produced quantities. (and it some cases just what people are willing to pay for it)
Meaning the more you make, the lower the price can be.
Low quantities are typically in order of magnitude of a couple of hundred per year.
Typical OEM MOQ for as special product or modification is around 250.
Just to be clear, Kartesian products are of extremely high quality.
It's was just a suggestion of why these prices are so "alien".
Maybe the word maybe was a better choice.
But the price of a product is not only proportional to its quality, but also produced quantities. (and it some cases just what people are willing to pay for it)
Meaning the more you make, the lower the price can be.
Low quantities are typically in order of magnitude of a couple of hundred per year.
Typical OEM MOQ for as special product or modification is around 250.
Just to be clear, Kartesian products are of extremely high quality.
It's was just a suggestion of why these prices are so "alien".
Price is cut in half if you order 100 drivers.
Sounds like a good candidate for a group buy.
Their stuff is definitely high quality. I really liked this prosound fullrange despite the peaks up top. Great high power mid-tweeter. Ordered more for a couple projects.
https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/wib100-vpa-s
Their engineering is solid and it appears they've brought all manufacturing back to France. I hope they stick around for awhile.
Sounds like a good candidate for a group buy.
Their stuff is definitely high quality. I really liked this prosound fullrange despite the peaks up top. Great high power mid-tweeter. Ordered more for a couple projects.
https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/wib100-vpa-s
Their engineering is solid and it appears they've brought all manufacturing back to France. I hope they stick around for awhile.
I am waiting for a copy of these XMAX 15 - beauties build in TAIWAN (speaker paradice) and offered for 1/3 of the french alien perv price , or like some say (Do Not) FAPP ;-)
Lets make Scan Speak pale in the face
Little blast from the past , the good old times :
Sound quality on CD is much better than the poor MP3 stuff that YT squeezes out of the original release!
There's no lock on my door, dunno what bolts are for
I never pay no rent, all I got was heaven sent
Don't need no clocks (tick, tock) to get off my rocks
Oh, I've got tons of time, living on coca and lime
You want me to be like you, the truth is, you have no clue
That this lifes' master plan should be enjoyed by man
When I'm on TV you all think I'm a bit funny
Basical and out of time
(But it's luxury protected from humanity)
(Don't cost a dime, precious time) (time, time, time)
(There's no jungle blues, once you kick off them tennis shoes)
(Making up your mind in time) (time, time, time)
(One day I will revive, so we can all survive)
(It's just a matter of time) (time, time, time)
(Oh, it's luxury, protected from humanity) (
Don't cost a dime, precious time) (time, time, time)
(There's no jungle blues once you kick off them tennis shoes)
(Making up your mind in time) (time, time, time)
Whoa The priest says I'm outta line, I'm wastin' my tons of time He say I should pray some more but I don't know what the hell for Woo
Lets make Scan Speak pale in the face
Little blast from the past , the good old times :
Sound quality on CD is much better than the poor MP3 stuff that YT squeezes out of the original release!
There's no lock on my door, dunno what bolts are for
I never pay no rent, all I got was heaven sent
Don't need no clocks (tick, tock) to get off my rocks
Oh, I've got tons of time, living on coca and lime
You want me to be like you, the truth is, you have no clue
That this lifes' master plan should be enjoyed by man
When I'm on TV you all think I'm a bit funny
Basical and out of time
(But it's luxury protected from humanity)
(Don't cost a dime, precious time) (time, time, time)
(There's no jungle blues, once you kick off them tennis shoes)
(Making up your mind in time) (time, time, time)
(One day I will revive, so we can all survive)
(It's just a matter of time) (time, time, time)
(Oh, it's luxury, protected from humanity) (
Don't cost a dime, precious time) (time, time, time)
(There's no jungle blues once you kick off them tennis shoes)
(Making up your mind in time) (time, time, time)
Whoa The priest says I'm outta line, I'm wastin' my tons of time He say I should pray some more but I don't know what the hell for Woo
There's something I don't agree with Kartesian initially, such as BL(x) giving up earlier than KMS(x). But this one seems to be just about right. The two giving up at about the same excursion.
Yeah I know what you mean. Getting the BL(x) linear is only a lot more difficult (= expensive). While getting a linear compliance is much more simple to implement. So my comment was written from that perspective.
But yeah, in the end BL is more important because of the squared variable. Or in other words, the Qt changes drastically when the BL changes.
Yet another Kartesian video
And the Sub180_vMS available at TLHP: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-kartesian-sub180-vms-8-ohm-181-5-mm.html
Was considering the Sub180 instead of two E150HEs but not sure if it's worth it 🤔
Was considering the Sub180 instead of two E150HEs but not sure if it's worth it 🤔
Sub180 xmas looks very good, but basically that's it. The surround seems not very wide(xmech can be limited?). No shorting ring(although motor seems well optimized), bandwidth limited. The cone has ventilation, which is a big improvement compared to Sub120.
E150HE/E180HE are direct competitors at a lower price, and Anarchy is cheaper still(with lower xmax though).
Also don't forget Misco BWX-6502/6501.
All of them have wider operating bandwidth.
E150HE/E180HE are direct competitors at a lower price, and Anarchy is cheaper still(with lower xmax though).
Also don't forget Misco BWX-6502/6501.
All of them have wider operating bandwidth.
Wonderful looking driver, but compared to two E180HE (so the 6 inch), the price is almost double.
So unless you have a very specific use case to be only ably to use one driver, I would go for two in many cases.
Gaining 6dB extra or halving the distortion, is extremely difficult with just one driver.
On the other hand the Kartesian is just a much more sophisticated woofer in sense of engineering and finish.
While the Dayton are much more simple and kinda build on a simple brute force way (incl many leftovers from glue)
Also don't know why you say that the bandwith is limited?
https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/copie-de-wom185-vki
(no this link does not go to the WOM, but to the Sub, kinda confusing, I know)
Edit: updated graph, they have the wrong one on their website, that is very very confusing.
So unless you have a very specific use case to be only ably to use one driver, I would go for two in many cases.
Gaining 6dB extra or halving the distortion, is extremely difficult with just one driver.
On the other hand the Kartesian is just a much more sophisticated woofer in sense of engineering and finish.
While the Dayton are much more simple and kinda build on a simple brute force way (incl many leftovers from glue)
This woofer most definitely has shorting rings, look at the description as well as the inner structure.
Also don't know why you say that the bandwith is limited?
https://www.kartesian-acoustic.com/copie-de-wom185-vki
(no this link does not go to the WOM, but to the Sub, kinda confusing, I know)
Edit: updated graph, they have the wrong one on their website, that is very very confusing.
