In summer will be putting on an event for around 200 people in a large barn space, with electronic bass heavy music. Want to buy a small rig or build one. Doesn’t have to be fancy maybe more like a suicide rig.
need help getting a gage of what specs will be needed, what SPL would be needed for that size crowd in a large high ceiling barn.
Would it be best to calculate overall spl or look at spl for tops, mids and subs separately.
has anyone got any recommendations? Budget is around £600 -£800. Have the facilities to build cabinets. Advice on good drivers, amps and boxes to look out for that would fit Into that price would be appreciated.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
need help getting a gage of what specs will be needed, what SPL would be needed for that size crowd in a large high ceiling barn.
Would it be best to calculate overall spl or look at spl for tops, mids and subs separately.
has anyone got any recommendations? Budget is around £600 -£800. Have the facilities to build cabinets. Advice on good drivers, amps and boxes to look out for that would fit Into that price would be appreciated.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
First thoughts are to try and buy a used set-up.
Can't really assist but "perhaps" a couple of used stereo Pro amps and a S/H Behringer CX2310
My own home party system didn't cost me much as it was all S/H stuff deemed too heavy for road use compared to modern digital amp gear but was still about $800-AuD for the rack
What about a whole heap of used car subwoofers wired up to give an even load for the woofers amp? Ask for donations of old subbies?
Can't really assist but "perhaps" a couple of used stereo Pro amps and a S/H Behringer CX2310
My own home party system didn't cost me much as it was all S/H stuff deemed too heavy for road use compared to modern digital amp gear but was still about $800-AuD for the rack
What about a whole heap of used car subwoofers wired up to give an even load for the woofers amp? Ask for donations of old subbies?
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A classic dance stack system with subs/kicks/mid-tops wouldn't be out of place here, that could be horn loaded or reflex the only difference is the reflex version would need more amp power behind it to produce similar SPL.
I have active and passive systems that have done events this size, the active system cost about $3.5k new while I pieced together the passive system from used parts collected from all over. I scored some great deals on the speakers getting some pieces for almost nothing but the amp rack still cost about $2k to put together, this system would retail for about $8k new. That is the level of system you should aim for and it's something you should be able to hire in for well within your budget, I rent out my passive rig for $350/day.
I have active and passive systems that have done events this size, the active system cost about $3.5k new while I pieced together the passive system from used parts collected from all over. I scored some great deals on the speakers getting some pieces for almost nothing but the amp rack still cost about $2k to put together, this system would retail for about $8k new. That is the level of system you should aim for and it's something you should be able to hire in for well within your budget, I rent out my passive rig for $350/day.
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Depends on the crowd. Are they mostly the age who are enamored with SPL? I'm talking about if there's not enough, they'd like to leave and go find a more "happening" place. So you'll need a target SPL you want, which naturally will be bigger for those dancing close to the speakers, smaller for those at the far end of the floor.
Then perhaps consider the layout of the occupied floor; long and narrow, as shooting down the length of the barn? Short and wide? Speakers placed up in a loft where they wont get damaged?
Anyway, if you rent, you can give the venue occupied space measurements and the SPL you want, where you want it - and let the sound company you're paying figure it out.
What he said
Unless of course you can get stuff for free or ultra cheap, then you get the fun of making it all work together
Pease don't kid yourself that £800 will buy you anything like the SPL that you and your guests will be expecting. Adding a zero brings you closer to a real world budget, and you'd still have to wait for bargains on Marketplace...
The bass output you undoubtedly require eats up money and space very quickly, and you must ask yourself if it's better to have a barn full of 200 (probably stoned and drunk) disappointed punters in front of you or keep the £800 in your pocket for now!
The bass output you undoubtedly require eats up money and space very quickly, and you must ask yourself if it's better to have a barn full of 200 (probably stoned and drunk) disappointed punters in front of you or keep the £800 in your pocket for now!
Suicide rig = something you don't want to spend much time/money on, because there's a decent chance it'll be trashed and/or confiscated.
"Good drivers, amps", "build cabinets" don't really fit into that attitude.
If you want something really good, you'll have to rent in. Sorry, but you don't have the budget to buy something great. A single decent 18" driver would eat half of your budget, and you haven't covered the mid-high range or powered anything yet.
If you want something reasonable, search carefully for old-school PA systems being sold off cheap. Passive speakers, racks of old-iron amps. Make sure cables are included. It'll be bulky and heavy, and won't keep up with more modern offerings, but it'll work well enough and probably sound pretty good.
If you want a suicide rig, buy as many "PA" cabinets as you can find, power the pile-o-boxes with whatever amps you can get hold of. Make sure nothing is totally shorted out, and expect at least half of the cabinets to not survive the night. If you're feeling fancy, use an old analogue crossover (Behringer CX2310, for example) so that you can at least low-pass the subs.
Finally, I'd like to note that DIYing a PA system isn't as simple as building a few boxes and slapping drivers in them. You'll need to do some work with a measurement mic to get everything working together properly, and then program the DSP, limiters, etc etc.
Chris
""If you want something reasonable, search carefully for old-school PA systems being sold off cheap. Passive speakers, racks of old-iron amps. Make sure cables are included. It'll be bulky and heavy, and won't keep up with more modern offerings, but it'll work well enough and probably sound pretty good.""
Considering the risk of back injury doing the above it isn't something I'd personally want to be moving, my rig is semi-static and doesn't leave the shed much. No way could I move my refrigerator sized speakers without a big trailer.
However the mind picture of a hundred or so car subwoofers pumping out bass was a trip and I now wonder if that were possible.
Cost effective solution is as stated renting
Considering the risk of back injury doing the above it isn't something I'd personally want to be moving, my rig is semi-static and doesn't leave the shed much. No way could I move my refrigerator sized speakers without a big trailer.
However the mind picture of a hundred or so car subwoofers pumping out bass was a trip and I now wonder if that were possible.
Cost effective solution is as stated renting
They're brutally inefficient and would require many many kilowatts of amplifier power so not terribly practical.. you save on driver cost but lose on amp requirements and electrical demand. The old school monster speaker setup has proven to be the best zero/low budget solution, just 4 boxes(2 tops 2 subs) with literally any 2 amplifiers you can scrounge up will make a lot of noise and easily run on a single outlet.
Thinking about things costs nothing, actual hardware expensive. That’s what he meant.
”Free” or inexpensive amps and/or speakers are “no good” as far as commercial use goes. Two of Murphy‘s corollaries ar work: Nothing good is free, and If nobody uses it there’s a reason. 74 pound CS800’s and Bertha horns can be made to work here. Sort of. You still wont get away under 800 pounds. Either the money or the weight.
And every dollar does add up. Every dollar spent on rent (or junk equipment) is a dollar less available to buy the proper rig.
”Free” or inexpensive amps and/or speakers are “no good” as far as commercial use goes. Two of Murphy‘s corollaries ar work: Nothing good is free, and If nobody uses it there’s a reason. 74 pound CS800’s and Bertha horns can be made to work here. Sort of. You still wont get away under 800 pounds. Either the money or the weight.
And every dollar does add up. Every dollar spent on rent (or junk equipment) is a dollar less available to buy the proper rig.
In the USA I know what I would look for:
Old Peavey SP2, SP3, SP4. 15" woofers down to 54 hz. The ones with a separate horn are going for $150 or less cash & carry. Electrovoice U something. Beat up ugly klipsch gear with 12" or 15" woofers. Listen to them at least 100 w to make sure you do not buy ripped suspensions. Measure resistance, nothing below 6 on the one woofer versions and 3 ohm on the 2 woofer versions.
18" woofers from scrapped Allen organs. I know of one abandoned in the ceiling of a church when they went pipe organ. You may need to build a reflex box if the building was the echo chamber. Down to 20 hz.
Old transformer type Peavey CS800x PV1.3k BGW750 Crown MA1200 Macrotech 600 XLS802 QSC RMX2450 CX502 CX702 CX902 cx1102. Check volts out on an 8 or 4 ohm 1000 w resistor on these, <50 VAC does not count.
Speaker Cables, 12 & 10 ga 3SOw/g cord abandoned by factories because the insulation is skinned. Too dangerous for 480 vac. Just great for 50 vac. 12 or 10 ga 120 vac extension cords with the same problem, loose nema hardware not a problem. Terminate with crimp on spade lugs.
I've picked up a NADY sub crossover for $50. Peavey & Behringer make similar models. I would not monkey with Behringer amps, they are designed for a 5 year life and schmatics+parts cross list are not available.
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FWIW I build Guitar amps and sell straight to Musicians so in constant direct contact with them.
So get regularly invited (every other week or so) to shows , "8 band festivals", etc.
Usually very low budget, in the same league as your electro/rave party.
Here and there I see cheap PAs, consisting of:
* a cheap 12-16 mixer, lowly brand, say Numark, Pyramid, low end Peavey or Mackie or some old clunky "good brand but obsolete" one, say Yamaha or Studiomaster or ...
* random assorted rack case power amps, many intended for DJ or similar use, "mystery brand"
* assorted cabinets, a real speaker salad.
Looked at from behind, many are former powered cabinets, often built-in amplifiers are burnt and unrepairable so owner sells them for cents on the dollar.
Thing is they are sold for much less than spare speaker drivers price and you get a well made cabinet thrown in for free.
Users cover plate amp hole with a piece of plywood, add a generic crossover (Parts Express) and a couple speakons and presto! they have a reasonably good, functional "passive* full range speaker, for peanuts.
To be driven from before mentioned cheap rack amps.
Funny thing is they usually sound very good!
DSP included in original plate amps corrects lots of small 1-2-3 dB peaks and dips here and there to make response ruler flat, but if not they are still very acceptable.
You might do something similar to build even a large system at much reduced cost.
What indianajo suggested
So get regularly invited (every other week or so) to shows , "8 band festivals", etc.
Usually very low budget, in the same league as your electro/rave party.
Here and there I see cheap PAs, consisting of:
* a cheap 12-16 mixer, lowly brand, say Numark, Pyramid, low end Peavey or Mackie or some old clunky "good brand but obsolete" one, say Yamaha or Studiomaster or ...
* random assorted rack case power amps, many intended for DJ or similar use, "mystery brand"
* assorted cabinets, a real speaker salad.
Looked at from behind, many are former powered cabinets, often built-in amplifiers are burnt and unrepairable so owner sells them for cents on the dollar.
Thing is they are sold for much less than spare speaker drivers price and you get a well made cabinet thrown in for free.
Users cover plate amp hole with a piece of plywood, add a generic crossover (Parts Express) and a couple speakons and presto! they have a reasonably good, functional "passive* full range speaker, for peanuts.
To be driven from before mentioned cheap rack amps.
Funny thing is they usually sound very good!
DSP included in original plate amps corrects lots of small 1-2-3 dB peaks and dips here and there to make response ruler flat, but if not they are still very acceptable.
You might do something similar to build even a large system at much reduced cost.
What indianajo suggested