This project is to build a full-range, open-baffle, reference speaker for use in small to large rooms (I move a lot). I have owned and enjoyed full-range speakers before (Omega Super Alnico XRS) but only listened to open baffle (Lii Song Leonidis, dipole panels). My goal is flat, clean, dynamic, high WAF. I enjoy deep, powerful bass, so I will supplement with sub-woofers. I will cross over somewhere in the 80-200Hz range to relieve the FR driver from carrying the bass, so this will be a bi-amped system. I am unconcerned with extension to 20KHz – at age 66, I can only hear to 10KHz anyway. High efficiency is a goal to allow a single-ended tube amp to be used for the FR and because I listen pretty loud.
The subs will be open baffle too. I will use stereo subs in an H-Frame, equalized to optimize response. I am looking at GRS subs (2x12” per side) Acoustic Elegance Dipole 15 or 18, Eminence Alpha 15A, SB Audience, and Lii-Song W series. I hope to place the FR panel on top of the sub-woofer and likely integrate the two structures.
The following FR drivers are on my short list:
The subs will be open baffle too. I will use stereo subs in an H-Frame, equalized to optimize response. I am looking at GRS subs (2x12” per side) Acoustic Elegance Dipole 15 or 18, Eminence Alpha 15A, SB Audience, and Lii-Song W series. I hope to place the FR panel on top of the sub-woofer and likely integrate the two structures.
The following FR drivers are on my short list:
- Markaudio Alpair 12P: highly regarded, high efficiency, smooth response, well-priced
- Markaudio MAOP 10 or 11: less efficient, more refined, more expensive, is it worth it?
- Lii-Song Silver 8: efficient, dynamic, a bit less expensive than MAOP, Decware reference
- Lii-Song Silver 10: well-reviewed, 3x the price of S8?
- Lii-Song Platinum 10: ultra-refined, ultra-efficient, ultra-expensive, very low Qts
- Decware FRX: designed for OB, custom, handmade, expensive, flt response, good efficiency
- Seas Prestige FA22RCZ: efficient, low Qts, bright HF, moderately expensive
- Seas Exotic F8: alnico, refined, efficient, very expensive
- Visaton B200: Efficient, high Qts, rising top end, moderately expensive
- Jordan Eikona 2: Low efficiency, low Qts, fairly smooth, high price
- Tang Band W8-1808, efficient, fairly expensive
- Tang Band W8-2145, less efficient, <1/2 the price.
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I did some experiments with fullrange + supplemental bass in open baffle. I personally found that I liked the mids of the larger fullrange drivers, and I liked the treble of the smaller fullrange drivers. All the fullrangers I tried all felt unfortunately compromised compared to using a two-way or three-way for the top. For example, I found MOAP 10 + Alpair 7ms with a 3.5khz 1st-order xover sounded great and clearly superior to either individual driver.
If you want to stick with a single fullrange for the top, the only one from your list I can speak to is the MOAP 10. The mids are really excellent, but I found the treble to be too mellow yet also fatiguing. I think metal cone breakup has some harsh distortion, even if you manage to get the frequency response flat. I love metal cones but in my experience they need to be crossed to a tweeter.
If you’re looking for reference quality and high efficiency from an OB fullranger, I think this may be a case when you’ll do better by spending more. I’ve heard Voxativ and Cube Audio at Burning Amp and both were excellent. If you’re willing to spend Platinum10 or Exotic F8 money, maybe also consider the Cube F10 Select or the Voxativ AC-1A?
Good luck. I love OBs and this project has potential to be a winner!
If you want to stick with a single fullrange for the top, the only one from your list I can speak to is the MOAP 10. The mids are really excellent, but I found the treble to be too mellow yet also fatiguing. I think metal cone breakup has some harsh distortion, even if you manage to get the frequency response flat. I love metal cones but in my experience they need to be crossed to a tweeter.
If you’re looking for reference quality and high efficiency from an OB fullranger, I think this may be a case when you’ll do better by spending more. I’ve heard Voxativ and Cube Audio at Burning Amp and both were excellent. If you’re willing to spend Platinum10 or Exotic F8 money, maybe also consider the Cube F10 Select or the Voxativ AC-1A?
Good luck. I love OBs and this project has potential to be a winner!
Another possibility would be to use a good wide-range speaker + tweeter. I once read (forgot where, gotta find the thread) that for example an Eminence Beta 8 (or was it Alpha?) + a tweeter can work wonders.
It's really hard to pick up an 8" fullrange that sounds good out of the box (without a dustcapectomy) or a bit of EQ applied, or both...
It's really hard to pick up an 8" fullrange that sounds good out of the box (without a dustcapectomy) or a bit of EQ applied, or both...
Very good, no quite the DDR as the A10p, a “vintage" top-end
MAOP 10.2, one of the best bargins in higher end drivers.
Not much to comment on, T/S are not useful for modeling (althou tha plays little role on a WAW OB), they seem tpo be made up. Makes good money making drivers that look like famous vointage ones. I won’t go near them. Alspo expensive.
Very good (once phase plugs installed), but price has skyrocked recently.
Expensive, AlNiCo, no experience.
Also good once the (mandatory) phase plugs are installed to really help with the top end and arrest the rising response. Rated at 95dB but really closer to 89-90 dB. One of the few FRs that will actually do bass (on a sufficiently big baffle)
Rough top end makes them unlistenable for me.
Kinda coloured,especially up top.
Most OB FR systesm are actually WAWs. So with woofer help, a smaller FR gives better mids & tops, a good choice for nit a lot of money wouldbe Pluvia 7HD.
The actual XO point is determined by the width (mostly) of the baffle. Check out Martin King’s seminal article for details. http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Theory.html
Seems a favourite due to big size, high Qts. and dirt cheap. Use something better the last word in the previous sentwence describes their sonic character. I have a set, took a lot of work to make them even listenable, still not great.
The AE drivers respresent some of the best, given Danny’s rep i would stay away from most anything he sells (i would like to hear teh LGK 2.0)
dave
That sounds simialr to my term “vintage”
Putting an XO above 1 kHz is something i like to avoid. XOs that high ar eproblematic.
But ti is all a matter of choosing your compromises.
dave
Yes. I consider this one also, but rather for a Frugel-Horn design (think member @planet10).
Yes. This one is interesting too...
Another candidate for me would be the VISATON BG20 - maybe a very good surprise for the modest price ?
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/bicone-speaker-visaton-bg-20-8-ohm-8-07-inch.html
But it's me, OK ?
T
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Your best bet is to have an active setup, as the different responses from small to large rooms will vary greatly.
You can always adjust by using an active setup, like the miniDSP.
Two designs right now that I feel are at the top of their game.
The Bitches Brew
https://evo2.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bitches_Brew_Open_Baffle_Live_Edge_Speakers.pdf
and the Qualio IQ
https://www.qualioaudio.com/products/qualio-iq-1
Two different approaches, but they would both deliver great sound. You could almost ditch the tweeter on the Qualio since the SBA mid reaches 10kHz. Or keep it for when younger friends/listeners come around.
Forgot to post the link to phase plugs that work with FA22 and B200. For FA22 you need to add a couple divots for the non-flat pole piece.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/B200-phase-plug.pdf
Gratuatous pictures:
dave
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/B200-phase-plug.pdf
Gratuatous pictures:
dave
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb-acoustics-sb20frpc30-8-8-paper-full-range/
The SB Acoustics 8” FR gets a really good review. High efficiency. Some people have experimented with them in OB and said good things, but very much need bass help.
One tweak i saw mentioned was double side taping ping pong balls to the phase plugs. Apparently helps the dispersion a heap.
The SB Acoustics 8” FR gets a really good review. High efficiency. Some people have experimented with them in OB and said good things, but very much need bass help.
One tweak i saw mentioned was double side taping ping pong balls to the phase plugs. Apparently helps the dispersion a heap.
Thanks @planet10 !
Where can I find more informations about this Frugel-Horn variant for Alpair 12P speaker ? (drawings, construction tips...)
T
The Qts is 0.57 which is better than most, but not ideal for OB (>0.7). It's a good value, but I am looking for state-of-the-art.
Plans, email me your recent for a minimum $210 USD to this forum.
For the second, lots of info on the forum, any FH will do, yhey all have the same pieces.
dave