The 5MR450NDY is a great driver. So is the 6MR500NDY. They both sound very good, however they also tend to need higher crossover points despite being cone drivers. I wouldn't run the 5MR450 down lower than 350-400 2nd order. The 6MR500 does well down to 275-300 LR2 in a small chamber (this is what limits the low mid capability). Both drivers have huge VCs with decent xmax for their size, making power handling a non-issue and can be considered almost full range drivers.
Whizzer cones screw-up the HF phase response big time. The phase goes wonky all over the place, which you can hear in the stereo imaging (or lack thereof).
good morning
I would like to sincerely thank you all for your very kind and precious advice.
On the basis of all comments I have come to the conclusion that (speaking of a 3 way speaker) there is really no precise optimal crossing point between woofer and midrange. As an evidence of this I was also looking at a series of high-end 3-way professional monitors and actually the top of the line products sport either cone midranges or dome midranges depending on the brand and model (I am pretty sure they are at least very good all)
Too bad I have to honestly say that I like it when there is only one truth. The fact that several truths are true makes me umcomfortable
Thanks again to everyone and have a good day Gino
I would like to sincerely thank you all for your very kind and precious advice.
On the basis of all comments I have come to the conclusion that (speaking of a 3 way speaker) there is really no precise optimal crossing point between woofer and midrange. As an evidence of this I was also looking at a series of high-end 3-way professional monitors and actually the top of the line products sport either cone midranges or dome midranges depending on the brand and model (I am pretty sure they are at least very good all)
Too bad I have to honestly say that I like it when there is only one truth. The fact that several truths are true makes me umcomfortable
Thanks again to everyone and have a good day Gino
It’s not a matter of one or several truth, it’s a matter of which compromises you can live with. The perfect loudspeaker does not exist. Any design has it’s pro’s and cons, some better systems are just a bit less compromised than others but they will never be free of compromises. Pick your poison, figure out what you are trying to achieve and then figure out what sacrifices you are willing to make in size, room placement, looks, price etc etc
Hi your feeling is right I have just changed parts same value in some speakers i had For instance i experienced the benefit of using plastic cap instead of electrolytics. And you are clearly right ... a 3 way is much more complex than a 2 way and a 2 way is much more complex than a wideband without any xover at all
I read a rule but i do not know how right is ... to cover all the audio band with conventional drivers (i.e. cones and domes) 4 way is a minimum
If this is true a 3 way would a sort of compromise
Thank you very much indeed for your kind and very precious advice. I was clearly underestimating the difficulty of the task of designing a 3 way
But i had a weird idea ... to make actually a sort of 2 way plus tweeter That means to select a midrange that can be used just with a high pass filter and not the low pass filter circuit and complete the range with a tweeter with another high pass filter I do not know if you see what i mean
Even simpler ... i know of speakers where midranges even work without filter ! (like some models from EgglestonWorks, Epos. etc.)
I was focusing the cabinet because i was completely shocked by hearing how much some slabs of lead glued to the internal sides of a speaker influenced the sound The speakers have a big problem in the woofer not fit for the task ... but i have never experienced a more dramatic improvement at least listening a pipe organ track I cannot even image what would it be with a very good woofer The original in comparison was a joke
Unfortunately lead is toxic ... but it was a night and day change really ( I have to live with lead i am afraid What a material )
One thing is sure ... only cone midranges can be used without crossoves at all Dome mids need at least a high pass filter ... nothing impossible to do at all Maybe just a cap would be too little ... a 6dB filter i mean
But message received strong and clear ... start from the xover and drivers .... and end with cabinet
Hi ! very interesting. Let me ramble a bit ... fwiu and inductor works opposing to a change in flowing current And it is usually present where it can do the most harm i.e. in series with the woofer Crazy isnt it ? and so designers use huge and extremely expensive coils to avoid the negative effects
I wonder if there is a woofer that can be used with just a parallel filter ... i.e. without the series inductor and using it natural roll-off
That would simplify the work enormously
After it the midrange can take on the job
wow ... this is very very beautiful I would only separate the mid high section baffle from the woofer baffle ... to decouple the bass box from the mid highs
Imho the satellite plus sub can provide interesting benefits A great bass speaker is a very challenging design ... for both driver and cabinet
Once the 200 Hz part is done right the remaining part is less difficult ... i am quite sure of this And for this i am looking more to cone midranges
I would dedicate to the woofer only the very bass
Very nice speaker indeed Very nice
Good morning Mr Pass Thank you so much for your kind and very valuable advice. And a very intriguing idea.A cheap observation from my brother-in-law: Full range drivers make excellent mid-rangers.
Then again ... which kind of full-range ? they come from 8" to 3" And they cover clearly different bands and with different undistorted SPLs
And while cone midranges can be found quite cheap i understand that really good full range are very very expensive
I was even thinking to some guitar speakers ... unfortunately they have a not flat response But they could cover easily from lets say 100 Hz to 3kHz
It's the good part of the audio range The most critical i guess Maybe with some EQ to flatten them ,,,, i do not know
Last edited:
@ginetto61
At Diyaudio, we Klippel the questions and the truths...not only the speakers...well a little maybe
At Diyaudio, we Klippel the questions and the truths...not only the speakers...well a little maybe
Hi thanks for the kind reply I understand know that i was focusing not the main issues. On the basis of the advice and considering that in the end the drivers make most of the sound i should probably try to know more about the drivers characteristics Maybe i have been misleading from an old latin proverb .... in medio stat virtus Literally, “in the middle there is virtue”. So i was thinking ... if i can get the midrange right the other parts (low and high) will follow
I have two desires ... a great reproduction of voices and a great 3D soundstage Unfortunately in any case the crossing between the woofer and the midrange follows exactly inside the voice range Unless i use maybe a wideband midrange ? that could be an option
The coeherence in sound that can come from a same driver is unbeatable
Hi thank you very much for the link. I see 700Hz crossing point I was thinking to another point I understand that the tone of a cone driver is influenced by the material of which the cone is made So maybe if the woofer and the midrange are made from the same material the overall tone is more uniform ?
i see that the project you mention use cones made both from fibre glass Good Another point to consider Thanks a lot
Here's another design you might be interested in, using the Volt midrange dome (closest option to the ATC dome that one can still buy) + Scanspeak Revelator Ring Radiator, the Open Source Monkey Box. It should compete with the JBLs you liked for bass, Quite a lot more expensive than Troels' Discovery 3WC.
http://github.com/mbrennwa/osmcdoc/raw/master/osmc_paper.pdf
http://github.com/mbrennwa/osmcdoc/raw/master/osmc_paper.pdf
just this morning I start thinking a cheaper OSM like a discovery 26w. D7608/920010 drome and d2010http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SP38.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-7MD.htm
maybe @mbrennwa .....
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SP38.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBA-7MD.htm
I write cheaper cannot be the same ,the 26w goes up very well to 800 not problem here, I lived 56year without waveguide......d2010 sound so gooood ,for Nelson class A amp max 25w
btw I using Acamini 5w this days, so powerfull !!
Last edited:
A WG should not be expensive... I found this 2010 tweetsr lacks a little details and high ends in the Proac D15, but it makes it sorta realistic as more near to live than studio sound because this low resolution (a little like a polymer driver)... For the price though there should be a lot better nowadays.
Last edited: