Hello all - YouTube video is ready, I may do some editing, but pretty much complete. Casey sounds great playing this guitar, I hope the guitar sounds great also. My playing at the end is dicey, as I have volume up too high to get some feedback, and have some fun with the soundboard. Some people will like that, some will not of course.
This is a sneak peek for my friends on diyAudio, it is not anywhere near as technical as wanted I am sure, but I only have so much time for the video. It is about 7-1/2 minutes. I find videos that I like, that are 20 minutes, and I don't usually make it through that length. When this is released on YouTube, it will have direction to my email and website (which will have more technical info). Let me know what you think, let me have it as always and thanks!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l_e097oia3G1zWINI6o6tJk0hZQX6703/view?usp=sharing
This is a sneak peek for my friends on diyAudio, it is not anywhere near as technical as wanted I am sure, but I only have so much time for the video. It is about 7-1/2 minutes. I find videos that I like, that are 20 minutes, and I don't usually make it through that length. When this is released on YouTube, it will have direction to my email and website (which will have more technical info). Let me know what you think, let me have it as always and thanks!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l_e097oia3G1zWINI6o6tJk0hZQX6703/view?usp=sharing
I see by the way Casey is playing you got it all tuned up fretboard wise. It would be nice to hear a couple brief remarks from him about how it feels to hold and play - and the sound he hears from the horns at the "holding the guitar" perspective. We got that it's way louder as demonstrated out in the room. Perhaps as part of that without / with demo, a little inset in the video of a SPL meter showing a value when played acoustically, then again showing a bigger value with the horns turned on.
I think there's still some detail missing in the description of how it works, though much improved. Uninitiated, I'd come away with not quite understanding the "obvious"; that there's a separator board in there between the horn routing channels and the soundboard top. I'd probably be curious about all the screws along the top's edge; perhaps a 5 second mention that those are prototype only and wouldnt be present in a finished product.
This go-round is way better than the last in describing what's going on with your instrument!
I've never seen anyone do the feedback whammy effect that way on an acoustic guitar, by pressing on the soundboard.
I think there's still some detail missing in the description of how it works, though much improved. Uninitiated, I'd come away with not quite understanding the "obvious"; that there's a separator board in there between the horn routing channels and the soundboard top. I'd probably be curious about all the screws along the top's edge; perhaps a 5 second mention that those are prototype only and wouldnt be present in a finished product.
This go-round is way better than the last in describing what's going on with your instrument!
I've never seen anyone do the feedback whammy effect that way on an acoustic guitar, by pressing on the soundboard.
Joe,
The picking with folded horns off and on section was most interesting to me, demonstrating the large increase in level from around 200-1kHz, with virtually no increase above- the "sparkling highs" you mention seem to be all from the acoustic guitar, not the horns.
From what I heard played, the guitar itself seems to sound rather thin, with a prominent low mid emphasis when the horns are engaged, though without hearing full open chord strumming not enough to make more than that limited observation.
The resonant peak ~ 660Hz really stood out before the ~250 -400Hz feedback finale .
I'm still curious what the horns sound like on axis.
Your voice is much richer in the 100-200Hz range than the portions with you or Casey playing
What mic (s) did you use to record your voice and guitar, and where were they placed when you were talking and playing?
Was the mic position and gain the same for the picking with folded horns off and on section?
Art
Thank you JJ and Art! As usual your comments are right on target, and I will try to provide answers/ideas to both of you:
JJ- yes I am very happy with the intonation, pretty much all the fretboard and of course all the strings, I can't hear anywhere close to a slightly out of tune note, or any major fret buzz at all, love it! Casey had some very positive remarks about the guitar and the video, he is really into being showcased. That said I am a little reluctant about posting comments from somebody I paid. It happens all the time on YouTube, pretty much why I don't believe any of it, just listen for yourself, I will think about it. I also do wish I thought of having an SPL meter for the comparison, great idea...thinking about next time.
Some missing details, yes agree, I especially wish I showed the chamber divider to cover the horns, but I have mucho info on my website about this, will publish soon! Plus I am going to follow up with many short videos on my website and also YouTube, to get into the the weeds a little further. For now I am happy that I have good info in a 7-1/2 minute video. Don't get me started on the screws, they might actually need to be permanent, but not sure yet.
Personally I like the soundboard feedback effect, but the tone is pretty terrible. I have everything on 9-1/2 to make that happen, the circuit limiters would blow if I did that for another 30 seconds. My wife hates it, some other more rocking guys love it, thinking about getting rid of it, I can't compete with Casey!
Art - thank you for the comments, I was hoping you would join in! I assume you measured 200 Hz-1000 Hz, did not get a big increase above this eh? I get a pretty big one in REW, but that was recording at home. I agree it is more brilliant with the No Horns option vs. a standard acoustic guitar, measured that in the past. So yes maybe that is more from the light yet strong soundboard, and then everything goes up it dB with the horns, is this what you are hearing?
I think the guitar sounds a bit thin when there is just the No Horns finger picking, but not as thin as a standard guitar. In my opinion, they all sound thin this far up the soundboard with the higher strings, one of the things I do not like about acoustic guitars. I think the With Horns part greatly improves that, and does not sound thin at all, but just an observation by ear (when I say "just" I don't really mean it, the ear is King). I thought Casey did some nice strumming on his second video and loved the sound, what do you think of that part?
When you say "The resonant peak ~ 660Hz really stood out before the ~250 -400Hz feedback finale" do you like that? As I mentioned before I kind of like that messy patch, but not everybody does, and I understand that, it is pretty sloppy and distorted. Oh wait that is what many electric guitar players do!
Horns on axis, eh? Yeah me to, I have that on my list to measure, great point.
Yeah the voice, well not a huge concern for this video, but I agree with your point, it sounds so different, sometimes good, sometimes, eh. Makes me marvel at how the slightest changes can have such a huge change in sound that is recorded!
The attached shows mics used, I hope you can tell from the pics Art, because my request for specific mic info was not fulfilled, need to double back on that. Any comments from the pictures? They were approx. 3 meters away for all guitar recordings in the studio.
I am 100% sure that no mics were moved and no controls on anything were adjusted for the "Horns Off" to Horns ON" comparison, it was literally done one right after the other.
My voice interview was in the control room as you can see, not the studio, so not sure why that was different from session one to session two. I can tell you that everything I talked about was done in one take, no second takes at all. Did it all from memory, for better or worse.
All recording of session one was Casey in his baseball hat with the red, white and blue peace sign, just for reference. Session two was with his "cap". I think session one recordings were rich and beautiful, was great, so happy we got the footage for the two longer songs then.
Session two, for some reason, did not sound quite as good, same mics and placement. Not sure why, maybe the pickups or amp setting changed somehow, but my goal wat to keep them exactly the same, any thought on this?
Thanks you guys, I appreciate your feedback very much, keep it coming!
YouTube Video and Website release oh so close (I keep saying that). I will post to my diyAudio friends first as always!
JJ- yes I am very happy with the intonation, pretty much all the fretboard and of course all the strings, I can't hear anywhere close to a slightly out of tune note, or any major fret buzz at all, love it! Casey had some very positive remarks about the guitar and the video, he is really into being showcased. That said I am a little reluctant about posting comments from somebody I paid. It happens all the time on YouTube, pretty much why I don't believe any of it, just listen for yourself, I will think about it. I also do wish I thought of having an SPL meter for the comparison, great idea...thinking about next time.
Some missing details, yes agree, I especially wish I showed the chamber divider to cover the horns, but I have mucho info on my website about this, will publish soon! Plus I am going to follow up with many short videos on my website and also YouTube, to get into the the weeds a little further. For now I am happy that I have good info in a 7-1/2 minute video. Don't get me started on the screws, they might actually need to be permanent, but not sure yet.
Personally I like the soundboard feedback effect, but the tone is pretty terrible. I have everything on 9-1/2 to make that happen, the circuit limiters would blow if I did that for another 30 seconds. My wife hates it, some other more rocking guys love it, thinking about getting rid of it, I can't compete with Casey!
Art - thank you for the comments, I was hoping you would join in! I assume you measured 200 Hz-1000 Hz, did not get a big increase above this eh? I get a pretty big one in REW, but that was recording at home. I agree it is more brilliant with the No Horns option vs. a standard acoustic guitar, measured that in the past. So yes maybe that is more from the light yet strong soundboard, and then everything goes up it dB with the horns, is this what you are hearing?
I think the guitar sounds a bit thin when there is just the No Horns finger picking, but not as thin as a standard guitar. In my opinion, they all sound thin this far up the soundboard with the higher strings, one of the things I do not like about acoustic guitars. I think the With Horns part greatly improves that, and does not sound thin at all, but just an observation by ear (when I say "just" I don't really mean it, the ear is King). I thought Casey did some nice strumming on his second video and loved the sound, what do you think of that part?
When you say "The resonant peak ~ 660Hz really stood out before the ~250 -400Hz feedback finale" do you like that? As I mentioned before I kind of like that messy patch, but not everybody does, and I understand that, it is pretty sloppy and distorted. Oh wait that is what many electric guitar players do!
Horns on axis, eh? Yeah me to, I have that on my list to measure, great point.
Yeah the voice, well not a huge concern for this video, but I agree with your point, it sounds so different, sometimes good, sometimes, eh. Makes me marvel at how the slightest changes can have such a huge change in sound that is recorded!
The attached shows mics used, I hope you can tell from the pics Art, because my request for specific mic info was not fulfilled, need to double back on that. Any comments from the pictures? They were approx. 3 meters away for all guitar recordings in the studio.
I am 100% sure that no mics were moved and no controls on anything were adjusted for the "Horns Off" to Horns ON" comparison, it was literally done one right after the other.
My voice interview was in the control room as you can see, not the studio, so not sure why that was different from session one to session two. I can tell you that everything I talked about was done in one take, no second takes at all. Did it all from memory, for better or worse.
All recording of session one was Casey in his baseball hat with the red, white and blue peace sign, just for reference. Session two was with his "cap". I think session one recordings were rich and beautiful, was great, so happy we got the footage for the two longer songs then.
Session two, for some reason, did not sound quite as good, same mics and placement. Not sure why, maybe the pickups or amp setting changed somehow, but my goal wat to keep them exactly the same, any thought on this?
Thanks you guys, I appreciate your feedback very much, keep it coming!
YouTube Video and Website release oh so close (I keep saying that). I will post to my diyAudio friends first as always!
That's what I heard, then looked at a the REW RTA to confirm.
All I heard was the increase in the mid output the horns provide, you did not provide a standard acoustic guitar comparison.
The "no horns" sound reminded me of a hollow body electric like a Gibson 335 played unamplified.
From what I heard and saw on the RTA, the horns don't seem to provide any gain in the upper range, the sound changes from "thin" to "middy", since the upper harmonics are not increased.
His playing was fine, the sound was OK, if I didn't know the guitar was amplified I'd just think the mic placement and EQ emphasized the guitar's midrange.
No, I prefer a more even tonal balance.
The resonant feedback demonstrates the guitar is amplified.
A quote I stole from another forum, from a luthier by the name of Alan Carruth - which made me think of what's going on here. Italics mine -
"With several centuries of intensive 'cut and try' effort we have designs that are awfully hard to improve in any meaningful sense. The guitar as we have it is already one of the most efficient of all musical instruments, and many of the problems that come up on these lists occur precisely at those pitches where it's efficiency is highest. We are also quite familiar with the means to make what improvements are available; most particularly reductions in the mass of the soundboard. The available methods, such as 'sandwich' and 'lattice' tops, are not universally accepted, since they inevitably come with changes in the timbre, which can produce sounds that are not a good fit with the existing repertoire. If major improvements were easy to come by, somebody would already have made them."
So what you're doing for the guitar is really hard. Almost anything anyone does is going to change the sound and along with that comes doubt in acceptance. Yet, as I see it, there's still "room to move" in your invention, toward lesser degrees of objection. Example if 660 is objectionable, you could (somehow...) make one horn shorter, the other longer (somehow, using the space once occupied by the now shorter) and that will definitely shift 660 to some other value. Then another round for listeners who have the talent and experience for hearing this stuff.
Likewise with any thin-ness in the sound of just the acoustic portion of the guitar. I think you've found already that if you open up that "unused" space beside the speaker rear chamber and horn route to the top chamber, that fattens things up a bit. Who knows; you may have to surrender that space to the acoustic-half and no have a space for batteries and amplifiers integrated into the instrument.
"With several centuries of intensive 'cut and try' effort we have designs that are awfully hard to improve in any meaningful sense. The guitar as we have it is already one of the most efficient of all musical instruments, and many of the problems that come up on these lists occur precisely at those pitches where it's efficiency is highest. We are also quite familiar with the means to make what improvements are available; most particularly reductions in the mass of the soundboard. The available methods, such as 'sandwich' and 'lattice' tops, are not universally accepted, since they inevitably come with changes in the timbre, which can produce sounds that are not a good fit with the existing repertoire. If major improvements were easy to come by, somebody would already have made them."
So what you're doing for the guitar is really hard. Almost anything anyone does is going to change the sound and along with that comes doubt in acceptance. Yet, as I see it, there's still "room to move" in your invention, toward lesser degrees of objection. Example if 660 is objectionable, you could (somehow...) make one horn shorter, the other longer (somehow, using the space once occupied by the now shorter) and that will definitely shift 660 to some other value. Then another round for listeners who have the talent and experience for hearing this stuff.
Likewise with any thin-ness in the sound of just the acoustic portion of the guitar. I think you've found already that if you open up that "unused" space beside the speaker rear chamber and horn route to the top chamber, that fattens things up a bit. Who knows; you may have to surrender that space to the acoustic-half and no have a space for batteries and amplifiers integrated into the instrument.
"The guitar as we have it is already one of the most efficient of all musical instruments"
JJ - referencing the quote about, I cry ********. The guitar is not as efficient as it could be. If it were, it would not be overcome by other many many other instruments. The Grand Piano, now that is an efficient instrument. The guitar is great on many many fronts, I love it, but efficiency is not one of its calling cards. If whoever quoted this thinks so, where is the evidence?
If major improvements were easy to come by, somebody would already have made them."
Again ********, this has been a "let's not doing anything different" line for decades. Innovation looks forward, but also looks backward, to know what to keep, and what to change. Thank you Brother!
JJ - referencing the quote about, I cry ********. The guitar is not as efficient as it could be. If it were, it would not be overcome by other many many other instruments. The Grand Piano, now that is an efficient instrument. The guitar is great on many many fronts, I love it, but efficiency is not one of its calling cards. If whoever quoted this thinks so, where is the evidence?
If major improvements were easy to come by, somebody would already have made them."
Again ********, this has been a "let's not doing anything different" line for decades. Innovation looks forward, but also looks backward, to know what to keep, and what to change. Thank you Brother!
Also Art, to your point, I agree there is no standard acoustic guitar comparison, I will do that also. I do it every weekend at home. I jam on the Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar, then pickup a standard acoustic guitar, and literally start smiling to myself. The difference is night and day. Some things really just need to be heard live. Man I hope I get a chance to do that with one of the Bigs, the difference is huge.
My comparison of Horns OFF and Horns ON is just OK, I agree, not great. I have heard much better differences. The picking a bit up the fretboard on string 1 thru 4 is pretty good, but can be much better, man I wish I had a good recording studio in my house!
My comparison of Horns OFF and Horns ON is just OK, I agree, not great. I have heard much better differences. The picking a bit up the fretboard on string 1 thru 4 is pretty good, but can be much better, man I wish I had a good recording studio in my house!
Oh yeah, one more comment. Listening to Casey on the blues song: the low E string is banging out the low end just beautiful, and when he goes up to about fret 12 on the 1 and 2 string, the highs are brilliant. Seems very obvious to me, that is why I claim it to be real in my video comments. If anybody has an argument against this, bring it on!
What's your bathroom like? That's been a classic place to record, ala Les Paul and Mary Ford. They seemed to get that sound before any of these virtual halls and stadiums were available in a box. I believe you have the stuff to do it, right? A measurement mic in a tile bath could "do it"; maybe worth a try?
This looks a strange statement - what is "effective"?
I think the only thing both share are the strings - otherwise there are worlds in between.
Certainly there exists a multitude of music written for piano you cannot play on the guitar - and vice versa.
You might as well compare apples to pears.