I'd be interested to get some thoughts and opinions about the following issue:
I bought a second-hand DIY DAC from a member here on diyAudio. The DAC was advertised here in the Swap Meet, with photos that showed an acceptable build. The seller also posted about his build in a specific thread about this DAC design here on diyAudio. Once the DAC was delivered, the box looked fine and did not show any signs of bad handling. The seller also included some tube (bought separately), which were all in one piece. There is no reason to assume that the box was treated badly during transport.
However, the DAC itself almost fell apart when I took it out of the box. Most screws were loose, and some screws already fell out. I agreed with the seller that I should open the chassis and look inside. The mains transformer was loose and was dangling freely in the chassis. Some of the electronics boards were also loose, and some parts had fallen off (for example, the crystals/oscillators from the USB/I2S board were out with bent legs). It's hard to say if this is just a matter of straightening things and tightening the screws, or if there is some serious damage done to the electronics / boards / parts (e.g., due to the dangling mains transformer).
I'd like to try and rescue this thing, because I am actually a fan of this DAC design. However, I am worried this might turn out to be a black hole.
I asked the seller about his view, and he seems to argue that the loose/lost screws are due to poor handling during transport. I can't be sure, but the box did not show any such signs, and the tubes were all intact, so my gut feeling is the handling was not the real problem.
I asked the seller for a partial refund to make up for my time to repair the DAC, and for my potential expenses for spare parts and replacements. He did not respond positively to this.
I am not quite sure where to go from here. What are your thoughts? What would you do?
I bought a second-hand DIY DAC from a member here on diyAudio. The DAC was advertised here in the Swap Meet, with photos that showed an acceptable build. The seller also posted about his build in a specific thread about this DAC design here on diyAudio. Once the DAC was delivered, the box looked fine and did not show any signs of bad handling. The seller also included some tube (bought separately), which were all in one piece. There is no reason to assume that the box was treated badly during transport.
However, the DAC itself almost fell apart when I took it out of the box. Most screws were loose, and some screws already fell out. I agreed with the seller that I should open the chassis and look inside. The mains transformer was loose and was dangling freely in the chassis. Some of the electronics boards were also loose, and some parts had fallen off (for example, the crystals/oscillators from the USB/I2S board were out with bent legs). It's hard to say if this is just a matter of straightening things and tightening the screws, or if there is some serious damage done to the electronics / boards / parts (e.g., due to the dangling mains transformer).
I'd like to try and rescue this thing, because I am actually a fan of this DAC design. However, I am worried this might turn out to be a black hole.
I asked the seller about his view, and he seems to argue that the loose/lost screws are due to poor handling during transport. I can't be sure, but the box did not show any such signs, and the tubes were all intact, so my gut feeling is the handling was not the real problem.
I asked the seller for a partial refund to make up for my time to repair the DAC, and for my potential expenses for spare parts and replacements. He did not respond positively to this.
I am not quite sure where to go from here. What are your thoughts? What would you do?
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From my own experience as a seller, I've had a few occasions where I sent an item in perfect condition and screws got loose in transport, despite bomb-proof packing. Granted, these were heavier tube amps, and some of the transformer screws loosened. I have not had this issue with lighter weight DIY components.
So its possible its a mix of screws not being fully tightened or using appropriate measures like lock/spring washers, in combination of some rough handling during transport.
Just my 2c
So its possible its a mix of screws not being fully tightened or using appropriate measures like lock/spring washers, in combination of some rough handling during transport.
I say go for it, you can spend a minimal amount of time to put it back to its intended original state and see if it works or not. If not, time-box how much effort you'll spend before putting it aside or scrapping for parts, it doesnt have to become a black hole project.
Unless the unit was sold as "parts only" and at an extreme discount, I agree that some sort of partial refund is totally reasonable.
Just my 2c
Hm,I also have one the same problem with purchase of the tube preamp becose of pure packing and bad handling by the post office.But I never made some complaint about the purchase to the seller.Becose first you must know it is if can say so Second hand device and second you are in Diy audio site and forum,so you have no insurance and guarantie about your purchase.
I would say if your dac biards are working properly just put it together maybe in some new enlosure and you will have than new up build dac so no worry about this.In the end like I say is just a diy product so the risk is always on you what you will become and how the shipping goes.😉
I would say if your dac biards are working properly just put it together maybe in some new enlosure and you will have than new up build dac so no worry about this.In the end like I say is just a diy product so the risk is always on you what you will become and how the shipping goes.😉
Rough handling (vibration) may lose screws indeed. I've witnessed several times portable computers with all the bottom screws missing because they have been placed near a industrial equipment and the screws had no thread lock paint applied. I've also seen similar damages (lose screws, fallen off parts) due to shipping with the wrong type of packing material. For this reason, on my builds I always use some thread locking method for heawy parts such as transformers and I secure some components with 3M double sided tape to the PCB. This is also the norm for industrial equipment. Maybe the seller did not apply the same precaution and the bolts where not fully thightened to start with. This damage looks more like a result of bad luck and inexperience. It happened to me many times while collecting stuff bought from ebay. I don't open a claim when I am able to repair the damage, but sometimes I explain the issue to the seller so it can avoid the same mistake next time. On my experience the worst are shipments from UK with royal mail, many packages looks to have fallen at least 3ft, maybe 6 judging by to the internal and external damage. Maybe their automated gravity sorters for large packages are very tall.
It was sold as "fully functional". Photos showed unit in seemingly good condition.
How much of a partial refund would be reasonable?
Buying second hand must be seen as a bit of gambling. One have to engage in things one want to have in control - like asking how it will be packaged etc. I think only you can answer your question really - I understand that you dont want to hang out a member - but without seeing pictures of before / after state it is impossible for us to make a judgment I think.
Good luck sorting things out in the best way...
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Good luck sorting things out in the best way...
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Hours or maybe days of vibration in shipping will do that to something which isn't built to industrial standards. You bought something delicate - a DIY product, not something built to withstand being shipped around the world and protected against warranty claims. it is hardly fair to blame the seller on this one. It is what it is, and you both learnt something about what happens when you send things long distances which are not built for travel.
Hindsight is always 20/20, and no one likes "fees", but I never buy a fully built unit from anyone I don't know very, very well without using the standard PP for merchandise; never F&F for transactions like this. I also insist on tracked and insured packages. Shipping is too much of a gamble, and as mentioned above, it's rare to see a DIY build that would stand up to even the most basic shipping tests in "home-done" packaging.
Most people are wonderful, and they mean well, but simple misunderstandings can lead to a lot of drama. This is a hobby, and it's supposed to be fun. If it was conveyed to you that the unit would arrive to you in working condition, then you have a valid dispute, IMO. If you used PP for merchandise, you can file a claim. It will likely go in your favor. Take pictures, lots of them.
I hope you come to a mutual understanding.
Most people are wonderful, and they mean well, but simple misunderstandings can lead to a lot of drama. This is a hobby, and it's supposed to be fun. If it was conveyed to you that the unit would arrive to you in working condition, then you have a valid dispute, IMO. If you used PP for merchandise, you can file a claim. It will likely go in your favor. Take pictures, lots of them.
I hope you come to a mutual understanding.
This was the ad of the DAC I bought (with photos of how the unit looked before):
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dddac-pcm1794-nos-4-boards-transformer-output.410779/
I attached a few photos of how it was delivered. I also have some videos showing how things are loose or wobbly, but the forum won't let me upload those.
As I mentioned before, the box did not show any signs of poor handling at all. Would be great to hear how you guys would deal with this in a fair way.
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It seems to me you have verry bad luck becose this is some verry poor and bad build of this diy dac unit and I dont think is the shipping problem.Of course the shipping is always a risk but if the tronsformer come to loose and flying around,is only verry,verry bad build and nothing else.So I agree that in this case if the seller is a fair guy he must give you some refund becose this is a amateur build and not some good diy product😉
This is an unfortunate situation. Looking at the original photos I’m not surprised things became loose in normal shipping.
I used to work in the shipping industry, and I will tell you that because of that experience, I very intentionally pack things in a way they can survive a 2M drop onto concrete.
I used to work in the shipping industry, and I will tell you that because of that experience, I very intentionally pack things in a way they can survive a 2M drop onto concrete.
What happened is most unfortunate. I'd agree that the seller has some culpability over the situation. My go to shipper, FedEx, in no way has shipped my stuff to "six sigma" standards. Multiple packages I've sent have arrived broken, smashed - even package ejects. Working at Amazon, I've seen first hand how things are handled by workers who dont exactly "love their job".
I can only extend that observation to the shipping industry. Certainly most arrive with no problem, but not 3 PPM or whatever "six sigma" is. My last contention with them is they lost my $100 sale NAS, only able to tell me it's "out for delivery" - yeah, but in the wrong state! No other information is available and the "automated help desk" system flat out told me in plain English over the phone "I cannot connect you with a representative". If that's any indication of where things are headed...
Shipping is a risk and part of the cost of doing business IMHO. You pick a carrier you believe in and hope for the best outcome. You pack appropriately and that is - as stated above - "can survive a 2M drop onto concrete". Vibration wise, the item must "float" suspended on foam cushioning surrounding all six sides. Even with this level, it's still possible to incur the damage shown above, should the box get thrown multiple times while going though the shipping process.
I can only extend that observation to the shipping industry. Certainly most arrive with no problem, but not 3 PPM or whatever "six sigma" is. My last contention with them is they lost my $100 sale NAS, only able to tell me it's "out for delivery" - yeah, but in the wrong state! No other information is available and the "automated help desk" system flat out told me in plain English over the phone "I cannot connect you with a representative". If that's any indication of where things are headed...
Shipping is a risk and part of the cost of doing business IMHO. You pick a carrier you believe in and hope for the best outcome. You pack appropriately and that is - as stated above - "can survive a 2M drop onto concrete". Vibration wise, the item must "float" suspended on foam cushioning surrounding all six sides. Even with this level, it's still possible to incur the damage shown above, should the box get thrown multiple times while going though the shipping process.
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It's plausible that the build is absolutely adequate for any normal use incl. a smaller earthquake if the unit doesn't fall onto the floor. But a shipment is a completely other story... everything is more or less shuffled / thrown around as garbage - that is what one need to understand and prepare for as 6L6 indicates.
Delivered state is terrible yes but it looks like it should be possible to repair/rebuild it. I would try that with the help of the seller to begin with.
Pity that the bigger trafo came loose - the mounting hole in the bottom seems intact so the nut have unscrewed itself. I would actually think that the oscillators could take some beating but of course if not, a very important part of the product is affected.
Have to admit - personally I would have liked to return it. But return is not a usually an option in used gear deals... if not negotiated... I see also ot was probably not a cheap affair... truly sorry for your experience and again, I hope the situation can be solved to both parties satisfaction somehow.
The seller is to blame for having sent a unit that was not fit for transportation. If there was any impact on the outside of the chassis, nor was the packaging. I dont think any packaging could have saved the inside situation as this was caused by g-forces / vibrations and it is almost impossible to make a package that prevents this.
Was there any signs of the packaging been perforated or had receiving high impact force? If so, one should not accept tiger parcel and reject it at time of reception.
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Delivered state is terrible yes but it looks like it should be possible to repair/rebuild it. I would try that with the help of the seller to begin with.
Pity that the bigger trafo came loose - the mounting hole in the bottom seems intact so the nut have unscrewed itself. I would actually think that the oscillators could take some beating but of course if not, a very important part of the product is affected.
Have to admit - personally I would have liked to return it. But return is not a usually an option in used gear deals... if not negotiated... I see also ot was probably not a cheap affair... truly sorry for your experience and again, I hope the situation can be solved to both parties satisfaction somehow.
The seller is to blame for having sent a unit that was not fit for transportation. If there was any impact on the outside of the chassis, nor was the packaging. I dont think any packaging could have saved the inside situation as this was caused by g-forces / vibrations and it is almost impossible to make a package that prevents this.
Was there any signs of the packaging been perforated or had receiving high impact force? If so, one should not accept tiger parcel and reject it at time of reception.
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Sellers can make mistakes. I forgot to remove the counterweight of a TT - it ended up coming off, bouncing around between the platter and dust cover, actually smashing holes in the cover. If that gives any indication of what the package experienced.
Another time I thought hot melt glue would hold a pair of medium sized WIMA caps to an internal surface - buyer told me it arrived with those disconnected and bouncing around inside the CD player...
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