Hey Guys,
Im studying Sound and Music Production and for my Bachelors Project id love to build a Synergy horn. Im at the very start of the whole Process and rn im gathering literature and Programms which will help me to succeed in my adventure.
The first big problem i came across concerns the simulation of a synergy Horn. Maybe i just dont understand but in Simulation Softwares Like Hornresp or AJ-Horn it seems impossible to Simulate all Drivers sitting at the sides of the throat. Any suggestions?
Further id be really thankful for any Tips and/or Ideas on how to start the Project. What are the first steps to build on to?
Thanks in advance
Elias
Im studying Sound and Music Production and for my Bachelors Project id love to build a Synergy horn. Im at the very start of the whole Process and rn im gathering literature and Programms which will help me to succeed in my adventure.
The first big problem i came across concerns the simulation of a synergy Horn. Maybe i just dont understand but in Simulation Softwares Like Hornresp or AJ-Horn it seems impossible to Simulate all Drivers sitting at the sides of the throat. Any suggestions?
Further id be really thankful for any Tips and/or Ideas on how to start the Project. What are the first steps to build on to?
Thanks in advance
Elias
Use the Input Wizard in Hornresp to create a multiple entry horn template and then adjust the input parameter values to suit your specific design.
See the 'Multiple Entry Horn Wizard' and 'Two-Way or Three-Way Multiple Entry Horn' sections in the Hornresp Help file for further details.
See the 'Multiple Entry Horn Wizard' and 'Two-Way or Three-Way Multiple Entry Horn' sections in the Hornresp Help file for further details.
Hi Elias
I think it would a good idea to roughly specify what kind of Synergy horn you intend to build? Big, small.......? Then it´s easier to help.
There isn´t really much literature on Synergy horns, so you have to find the knowledge by reading through a lot of diyaudio-threads.
Regards
Steffen
I think it would a good idea to roughly specify what kind of Synergy horn you intend to build? Big, small.......? Then it´s easier to help.
There isn´t really much literature on Synergy horns, so you have to find the knowledge by reading through a lot of diyaudio-threads.
Regards
Steffen
Some example Hornresp records can be found here (3 way) https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...h-1-4-cd-3d-print-and-cnc.383396/post-7201447 and here (2 way) https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2-way-synergy-inspired-by-spl-runt.378456/post-6849602
Thank you all for your Answers Guys!
David: I will check that ASAP and get Back when i have results (or new Questions) to share.
hornsteff: The horn should be suitable for PA usage. Say enogh for 200 Ppl. I was thinking about a relativly high x-over from the Horn to the next lower Part of the System (250-300Hz) because from what i read so far, a good hornmouth has to be at least 1m² for 300Hz already.
So either i have to Build a gigantic Horn to get all the good effects from the Horn or i cut high.
pelanj: Ty very much imma check this now!
Regards
Elias
David: I will check that ASAP and get Back when i have results (or new Questions) to share.
hornsteff: The horn should be suitable for PA usage. Say enogh for 200 Ppl. I was thinking about a relativly high x-over from the Horn to the next lower Part of the System (250-300Hz) because from what i read so far, a good hornmouth has to be at least 1m² for 300Hz already.
So either i have to Build a gigantic Horn to get all the good effects from the Horn or i cut high.
pelanj: Ty very much imma check this now!
Regards
Elias
Hey pelanj, i just checked the frequencyresp of your 3 way Systems. Looks pretty neat. How did you start to simulate? Did you have any Data where you came from or did you start at 0. Would love to hear something about your workflow/steps you had to archieve to come closer to the intended response.
kind Regards
kind Regards
Well, I am not an expert. I just use the Wizard to create an example, then modify the dimensions and driver parameters. You also have another wizard to change the dimensions with sliders. Once happy with the raw responses, I apply EQ to see what is possible. I am always checking for excursion for each band.
Hey David,
im getting somewhere. I simulated a few now and played around with the parameters. Does Hornresp always assume a "round" horn or can i make it rectangular aswell? And a question concerning the Drivers: Is it possible to import Specs from Drivers or would you simulate and then look for a driver which matches the specs you put in by hand?
im getting somewhere. I simulated a few now and played around with the parameters. Does Hornresp always assume a "round" horn or can i make it rectangular aswell? And a question concerning the Drivers: Is it possible to import Specs from Drivers or would you simulate and then look for a driver which matches the specs you put in by hand?
You can make it rectangular.
Assuming that the horn dimensions at S3 are width 50 cm and height 40 cm, then the value to enter for S3 would be 50 x 40 = 2000 sq cm.
Driver parameter values can be saved to a driver database and drivers can then imported from that database. Driver parameter values can also be copied and pasted from one record to another. See the Hornresp Help file for further details.
In most cases the user would input the specifications for a known driver and see how it performs in the simulation, rather than adjusting the driver parameter values and once happy with the results go looking for a driver that meets that specification. (This is why driver parameter values cannot be changed in the Multiple Entry Horn Loudspeaker Wizard).
Hi Elias
I would suggest that you study the SYN threads by Mark100. Look through his Syn-7 to Syn-10. Almost all of his MEH´s are crossed to a big SUB around 100Hz, and they are far from 1sqm at the mouth! His Syn-11 is maybe not so relevant for your purpose.
Take a look at Art Welter´s SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn:
"The sensitivity of 99 dB at 100 Hz (half space, 92 dB free space) is quite good for a cabinet of this small size" and "The SynTripP© has an F3 of 82 Hz" (Copied from his thread).
The SynTripP has been build by many DJ´s firing up parties with hundreds of People, of course with subs. This will maybe give you an idea of how big a Synergy/MEH needs to be!
A Synergy/MEH is a conical horn, and has very little in common with exponential horns. Maybe you have confused that? An exponential horn has a cut-off-frequency and needs a big mouth to go down low following theory. A conical horn has no cut-off-frequency and can go lower in frequency, although with less good loading. But again a Synergy/MEH is a conical horn with straight sided horn-walls, to be a constant directivity horn.
I hope this is helpful
Steffen
I would suggest that you study the SYN threads by Mark100. Look through his Syn-7 to Syn-10. Almost all of his MEH´s are crossed to a big SUB around 100Hz, and they are far from 1sqm at the mouth! His Syn-11 is maybe not so relevant for your purpose.
Take a look at Art Welter´s SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn:
"The sensitivity of 99 dB at 100 Hz (half space, 92 dB free space) is quite good for a cabinet of this small size" and "The SynTripP© has an F3 of 82 Hz" (Copied from his thread).
The SynTripP has been build by many DJ´s firing up parties with hundreds of People, of course with subs. This will maybe give you an idea of how big a Synergy/MEH needs to be!
A Synergy/MEH is a conical horn, and has very little in common with exponential horns. Maybe you have confused that? An exponential horn has a cut-off-frequency and needs a big mouth to go down low following theory. A conical horn has no cut-off-frequency and can go lower in frequency, although with less good loading. But again a Synergy/MEH is a conical horn with straight sided horn-walls, to be a constant directivity horn.
I hope this is helpful
Steffen
Hey David and Hornsteff,
thank you so much for the effort! The Matter can be confusing and intimidating at first although its really interesting. Getting so much help from the community is a blessing and i dont take that for granted!
I just read the book "A Manual of Loudspeaker Technology" and bought the "High Quality Horn Loudspeaker Systems" Book which appears to be kind of a Bible.
I still have a Question concerning the Mouthsize topic with exponential/conical Horn. I probably have confused the matter, but i got this from an Audiopodcast and the guy was talking about the "fake" Subhorns which cant really work cuz their mouth is way to small. The simplified formular for his thesis was f=v(speed of sound)/m²(hornmouth). I thought the Horn of a Sub (lets say it is folded) is conical aswell.
Ill check the threads from Mark100 and will probably be back with new questions
Thanks for your time guys! Have a good weekend!
thank you so much for the effort! The Matter can be confusing and intimidating at first although its really interesting. Getting so much help from the community is a blessing and i dont take that for granted!
I just read the book "A Manual of Loudspeaker Technology" and bought the "High Quality Horn Loudspeaker Systems" Book which appears to be kind of a Bible.
I still have a Question concerning the Mouthsize topic with exponential/conical Horn. I probably have confused the matter, but i got this from an Audiopodcast and the guy was talking about the "fake" Subhorns which cant really work cuz their mouth is way to small. The simplified formular for his thesis was f=v(speed of sound)/m²(hornmouth). I thought the Horn of a Sub (lets say it is folded) is conical aswell.
Ill check the threads from Mark100 and will probably be back with new questions
Thanks for your time guys! Have a good weekend!
Hi Again Elias
Art Welter´s member-name here on diyaudio is: weltersys. Check out his SynTripP-thread.
One of the authors of "High Quality Horn Loudspeaker Systems" is Bjørn Kolbrek. He has a website with lots of knowledge on horns
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems.info/index.php/publications
If you go to Publications and scroll down you will find two of his famous articles brought in AudioXspress: Horn Theory: An Introduction 1 and 2.
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems....brek_-_Horn_Theory_An_Introduction_Part_1.pdf
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems....brek_-_Horn_Theory_An_Introduction_Part_2.pdf
These two articles will give you a good start into horn theory.
With horns there are as always many ways to go. Sometimes it gets a bit religious!
Some people swear to multiple individual horns optimized for each driver, i.e. Avantgarde Audio just to name an easy to find example. One problem with that approach is, that you need to sit at one defined spot in space for the horn to funktion optimally. We call that "The head in a vise".
The Synergy/MEH-way makes compromises on the optimal loading of the individual drivers, but combines their output to a Virtual Single Point Source, i.e. like a "perfect" 3" fullrange-driver, that can really play bass and treble and play loud. With a Virtual Single Point Source you don´t have to sit with your head in a vise! That is what makes them attractive to me, as I have been listening to Fullrange-speakers like Visaton B200 for many years.
Horn Subs are almost always a compromise! And again you need to know how to use/design them. They might appear to be conical but they most often are exponential, like the Klipsch horn. But you need to have the Klipsch horn in a room-corner to make it work........
Have to go now. Going to an organ-concert!!!
Steffen
Art Welter´s member-name here on diyaudio is: weltersys. Check out his SynTripP-thread.
One of the authors of "High Quality Horn Loudspeaker Systems" is Bjørn Kolbrek. He has a website with lots of knowledge on horns
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems.info/index.php/publications
If you go to Publications and scroll down you will find two of his famous articles brought in AudioXspress: Horn Theory: An Introduction 1 and 2.
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems....brek_-_Horn_Theory_An_Introduction_Part_1.pdf
https://kolbrek.hornspeakersystems....brek_-_Horn_Theory_An_Introduction_Part_2.pdf
These two articles will give you a good start into horn theory.
With horns there are as always many ways to go. Sometimes it gets a bit religious!
Some people swear to multiple individual horns optimized for each driver, i.e. Avantgarde Audio just to name an easy to find example. One problem with that approach is, that you need to sit at one defined spot in space for the horn to funktion optimally. We call that "The head in a vise".
The Synergy/MEH-way makes compromises on the optimal loading of the individual drivers, but combines their output to a Virtual Single Point Source, i.e. like a "perfect" 3" fullrange-driver, that can really play bass and treble and play loud. With a Virtual Single Point Source you don´t have to sit with your head in a vise! That is what makes them attractive to me, as I have been listening to Fullrange-speakers like Visaton B200 for many years.
Horn Subs are almost always a compromise! And again you need to know how to use/design them. They might appear to be conical but they most often are exponential, like the Klipsch horn. But you need to have the Klipsch horn in a room-corner to make it work........
Have to go now. Going to an organ-concert!!!
Steffen