Simple question: How much of an improvement could I expect from a tweeter upgrade from a 25TFFC to something like the 27TBFC/G or better? I cross over at about 2kHz
Thank you for any help
Thank you for any help
Thanks for the reply, the 25TFFC isn't there. Does the 25TFFN there have very close performance? If it does, it appears that it would offer better performance figures down to 2kHz, how audible would it be?
I'm a complete nooby when it comes to driver quality. I bought some Ruark Talisman IIs which have said Seas tweeters, so I could try to modify them. Previous to that I had only used B&W DM601 S2, which had tweeters that sounded clear but obviously high distortion, and Wharfedale Diamond 8.3s which tweeters sounded very unclear by comparison, but more listenable.
Thanks again for the help
I'm a complete nooby when it comes to driver quality. I bought some Ruark Talisman IIs which have said Seas tweeters, so I could try to modify them. Previous to that I had only used B&W DM601 S2, which had tweeters that sounded clear but obviously high distortion, and Wharfedale Diamond 8.3s which tweeters sounded very unclear by comparison, but more listenable.
Thanks again for the help
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First
email to Ruark and ask for an opinion.
They may have tried the more recent SEAS tweeter, but not used it simply as it may increase the price of that particular model loudspeaker above a sensitive Market perceived threshold - such does happen.
If Ruark have experience with the other tweeter they may give you advice on how to modify the cross-over to get best performance from that tweeter,
but do offer to pay them for their time if it is a time-consuming matter for them to consider.
Go to www.seas.no and look at SEAS' data sheets also.
Look in their Prestige series drivers' section,
and in their Vintage drivers' section if yours is a discontinued model.
email to Ruark and ask for an opinion.
They may have tried the more recent SEAS tweeter, but not used it simply as it may increase the price of that particular model loudspeaker above a sensitive Market perceived threshold - such does happen.
If Ruark have experience with the other tweeter they may give you advice on how to modify the cross-over to get best performance from that tweeter,
but do offer to pay them for their time if it is a time-consuming matter for them to consider.
Go to www.seas.no and look at SEAS' data sheets also.
Look in their Prestige series drivers' section,
and in their Vintage drivers' section if yours is a discontinued model.
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Thank you for the answer, but I'm using an active PC setup and using a calibrated mic, so I can easily adapt to any Seas tweeter with the right physical measurements (most fit).
There are many variants on the 27TBFC/G, such as:
27TBC/GTV
27TBC/G
27TBFC/GTV
27TBF/G
Is the 27TBFC/G the cream of the crop, and how would the cream of the crop compare to the 25TFFC please? Is the difference obvious?
Thanks
Matt
There are many variants on the 27TBFC/G, such as:
27TBC/GTV
27TBC/G
27TBFC/GTV
27TBF/G
Is the 27TBFC/G the cream of the crop, and how would the cream of the crop compare to the 25TFFC please? Is the difference obvious?
Thanks
Matt
"...sounded clear, but obviously high distortion"?
"...sounded very unclear by comparison, but more listenable"?
Perhaps if you reconciled these statements, someone could point you in the direction you want?
Ideally I'd like low distortion, good CSD, frequency response isn't a problem. My choice is limited to Seas tweeters with a 3.6mm depth by 103.8mm width (which is the majority of them). I would like to know how much of an audible difference the improved distortion level would make to the sound quality , thank you for any help
I can do a mini review of the tweeters I mentioned if you like =)
The DM601 tweeter sounded like it had high distortion, an average CSD plot, and a good frequency response. Good detail, poor long term listening. B&W make good build quality drivers
The Wharfedale sounded like it had lower distortion, a bad CSD plot, and an average frequency response. Sound quality not great, build quality terrible
Thanks again
Matt
I can do a mini review of the tweeters I mentioned if you like =)
The DM601 tweeter sounded like it had high distortion, an average CSD plot, and a good frequency response. Good detail, poor long term listening. B&W make good build quality drivers
The Wharfedale sounded like it had lower distortion, a bad CSD plot, and an average frequency response. Sound quality not great, build quality terrible
Thanks again
Matt
Go With the 27TBFC/G
You can't go wrong. It's probably the best tweeter SEAS makes and one of the best at any price period.
You can't go wrong. It's probably the best tweeter SEAS makes and one of the best at any price period.
Can't say anything about the 25TFFC as I haven't heard it, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the 27TBFC/G. It seems to be almost everything one could ask for from a dome tweeter regardless of price. One would need to spend about twice that to get a better(?) tweeter. (I'm thinking of the Peerless 810921, which by the way has the same physical size mounting plate 104mm OD, 4.5mm thick.)
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more discussion ?
hello mattpwill, if you are reading ...
I have looked at the Specifications on SEAS web-site for your existing tweeter, and for the alternates you listed.
There are several things you will need to take into account,
but first,
do you want to continue discussing this ?
or have you made a decision and are happy proceeding with it ?
As you have a calibrated mic. , etc ... there are several things worth doing BEFORE you buy any new tweeter.
hello mattpwill, if you are reading ...
I have looked at the Specifications on SEAS web-site for your existing tweeter, and for the alternates you listed.
There are several things you will need to take into account,
but first,
do you want to continue discussing this ?
or have you made a decision and are happy proceeding with it ?
As you have a calibrated mic. , etc ... there are several things worth doing BEFORE you buy any new tweeter.
Firstly, thank you to everyone for your input, I've bought just 1 Seas 27TBFC/G to play with.
To Alan - I'd be happy to hear your advice =)
To Alan - I'd be happy to hear your advice =)
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Received the tweeter earlier today. Very happy with it crossed over LR4@2160Hz, thank you all! Took hexagrid off, but it now sticks out like a sore thumb on my Ruark speakers!
Can 10" "subwoofers" reproduce a good sound up to about 3kHz with low distortion and a good CSD?
The woofer in my speakers is the CC17RCY, how does this compare to the best for a midrange driver? I'd like low distortion and good CSD
Thank you
Can 10" "subwoofers" reproduce a good sound up to about 3kHz with low distortion and a good CSD?
The woofer in my speakers is the CC17RCY, how does this compare to the best for a midrange driver? I'd like low distortion and good CSD
Thank you
In true DIY spirit, you brushed aside SEAS' good intentions and tailored the sound to your own liking. Now all that's left is to disguise that shiny metal dome with black magic marker and your quest is complete...
😀 I'm only messing about, learning. Had to take a file to the speaker to fit the tweeter in!
Any ideas on the subwoofer question? I think it's looking like I'll have to build a tweeter + midrange (probably a dome) + subwoofer speaker if I want clear full range sound
Cheers
Any ideas on the subwoofer question? I think it's looking like I'll have to build a tweeter + midrange (probably a dome) + subwoofer speaker if I want clear full range sound
Cheers
Keep your old SEAS tweeters
Matt,
I am very puzzled ... probably because I don't know sufficiently what you want to hear from loudspeakers.
You wrote mini-reviews of the Wharfedale and B&W, but not of the original Ruark Talisman II.
Post one now from your memory of its sound with its original SEAS tweeter.
To say much more that may be useful to you I need to know what you thought of what you heard then.
If your original SEAS tweeters are still working, keep them, as they are capable of more than you may realize.
You seem very concerned about CSD and Distortion,
well, with tweeters, their CSD and Distortion are applicable ONLY in the particular part of their bandwidth that they are driven,
AND, most recent SEAS tweeters have low CSD and Distortion through the optimally useable portions of their bandwidth,
AND when used in their optimal region they will sound clearer than another tweeter which measures lower CSD and Distortion but is being used in part of its non-optimal bandwidth !
At what frequency did Ruark originally cross over in the Taliman II ?
Why do you want to cross over near to 2kHz ?
{I am not saying such cannot be good - I am asking only why you particually want to cross there}.
Matt,
I am very puzzled ... probably because I don't know sufficiently what you want to hear from loudspeakers.
You wrote mini-reviews of the Wharfedale and B&W, but not of the original Ruark Talisman II.
Post one now from your memory of its sound with its original SEAS tweeter.
To say much more that may be useful to you I need to know what you thought of what you heard then.
If your original SEAS tweeters are still working, keep them, as they are capable of more than you may realize.
You seem very concerned about CSD and Distortion,
well, with tweeters, their CSD and Distortion are applicable ONLY in the particular part of their bandwidth that they are driven,
AND, most recent SEAS tweeters have low CSD and Distortion through the optimally useable portions of their bandwidth,
AND when used in their optimal region they will sound clearer than another tweeter which measures lower CSD and Distortion but is being used in part of its non-optimal bandwidth !
At what frequency did Ruark originally cross over in the Taliman II ?
Why do you want to cross over near to 2kHz ?
{I am not saying such cannot be good - I am asking only why you particually want to cross there}.
I bought the Talisman IIs 2nd hand, so I'm not sure whether I would be judging the tweeters in their original state. The 25TFFCs inside them could only be crossed over very high to sound good (around 4.5 kHz LR4 - this doesn't seem right, so this is why I didn't post). Originally Talismans were crossed over by Ruark at around 3kHz
I cross over LR4 at around 2.1kHz because this is where my 27TBFC/G sounds best, there is some audible distortion crossed over below this. I guess it's the rising F3 distortion on the Zaph graph that I hear.
I bet those high end Scanspeak tweeters sound incredible, judging by their non linear distortion graphs
I cross over LR4 at around 2.1kHz because this is where my 27TBFC/G sounds best, there is some audible distortion crossed over below this. I guess it's the rising F3 distortion on the Zaph graph that I hear.
I bet those high end Scanspeak tweeters sound incredible, judging by their non linear distortion graphs
Options
I would not cross to 25TFFC at 3kHz, unless with a 4th order electrical filter,
but even then I think they would only play cleanly to medium Volume levels,
and not Loud without some distortion.
Ruark crossed in Talisman III at 3kHz, but that has a 27 series' SEAS tweeter.
With 25TFFC I would cross at 4kHz using a 3rd order electrical filter,
and a two-resistors' L-pad if necessary to reduce level to match the woofer.
CC17RCY can be crossed at 4kHz - look in SEAS' "Vintage drivers" for the data sheet.
As its response slopes off above 4kHz, a simple electrical filter will add to the driver's slope to give a Total slope of either 18dB or 24dB,
or somewhere in between depending on the component values used.
I would use a Capacitor + Resistor in series, similar to a Zobel, connected in Parallel with the driver,
and connect an Inductor between the amplifier and the above.
The component values will depend on the magnitude of that peak at 4kHz you see on the data sheet.
You can measure your two CC17RCY drivers - between 1kHz <---> 8kHz will be sufficient to decide the crossover.
Then I would use the 27TBFC/G and cross at about 2kHz with a 3rd order electrical filter,
and its natural slope below 2kHz can be incorporated into the cross-over design,
and a two-resistors' L-pad around the driver would help here,
to SEAS A26RE4, (H1411), which is the only 10" driver I know of at a reasonable price that works well into the midrange.
You would only need a single Inductor, to add to its natural slope above 2 kHz,
though a Parallel to the driver, C+R Zobel type could be used also if necessary.
You could use SEAS CA26RFX, (H1305), but you will have a bit rougher sounding midrange.
That driver, and CA26RE4X -(H1316)-, would work well for bass in a 3-way design.
SEAS A26RE4 will work well in a Floor-standing cabinet.
You would then have 2 good pairs of speakers !
What do you prefer to do ?
I would not cross to 25TFFC at 3kHz, unless with a 4th order electrical filter,
but even then I think they would only play cleanly to medium Volume levels,
and not Loud without some distortion.
Ruark crossed in Talisman III at 3kHz, but that has a 27 series' SEAS tweeter.
With 25TFFC I would cross at 4kHz using a 3rd order electrical filter,
and a two-resistors' L-pad if necessary to reduce level to match the woofer.
CC17RCY can be crossed at 4kHz - look in SEAS' "Vintage drivers" for the data sheet.
As its response slopes off above 4kHz, a simple electrical filter will add to the driver's slope to give a Total slope of either 18dB or 24dB,
or somewhere in between depending on the component values used.
I would use a Capacitor + Resistor in series, similar to a Zobel, connected in Parallel with the driver,
and connect an Inductor between the amplifier and the above.
The component values will depend on the magnitude of that peak at 4kHz you see on the data sheet.
You can measure your two CC17RCY drivers - between 1kHz <---> 8kHz will be sufficient to decide the crossover.
Then I would use the 27TBFC/G and cross at about 2kHz with a 3rd order electrical filter,
and its natural slope below 2kHz can be incorporated into the cross-over design,
and a two-resistors' L-pad around the driver would help here,
to SEAS A26RE4, (H1411), which is the only 10" driver I know of at a reasonable price that works well into the midrange.
You would only need a single Inductor, to add to its natural slope above 2 kHz,
though a Parallel to the driver, C+R Zobel type could be used also if necessary.
You could use SEAS CA26RFX, (H1305), but you will have a bit rougher sounding midrange.
That driver, and CA26RE4X -(H1316)-, would work well for bass in a 3-way design.
SEAS A26RE4 will work well in a Floor-standing cabinet.
You would then have 2 good pairs of speakers !
What do you prefer to do ?
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Thanks for this. I must say that I use my PC as an active crossover, I have mentioned this earlier in the thread. What you say is very interesting. Talisman used a circuit on the woofer exactly like you mentioned, with the resistor and cap, like a zobel. Please can I ask for your thinking behind this? Is it purely to smoothen the impedance curve?
My plan is to make some good sealed bookshelves that do very well down to 100Hz (so I can use them as standalone if space calls for it) and I'll make/buy a crossoverless subwoofer either side that go down to 20Hz . I'll cross the subs over 2nd order as high as possible. How low can the Peerless HDS tweeter be crossed in comparison to the 27TBFC/G? Do you know of any high value lesser known brands such as Alcone that can be bought in Europe?
What is the best stuff to use with woofers to keep them secure on the baffle? I will look into using the Seas drivers you mention, so many possibilities to consider. Designing speakers is pretty good fun, and I would imagine very rewarding =)
Does anyone know of a piece of software that can convert digital IIR filter coefficients to passive or active analog circuits?
Thanks
My plan is to make some good sealed bookshelves that do very well down to 100Hz (so I can use them as standalone if space calls for it) and I'll make/buy a crossoverless subwoofer either side that go down to 20Hz . I'll cross the subs over 2nd order as high as possible. How low can the Peerless HDS tweeter be crossed in comparison to the 27TBFC/G? Do you know of any high value lesser known brands such as Alcone that can be bought in Europe?
What is the best stuff to use with woofers to keep them secure on the baffle? I will look into using the Seas drivers you mention, so many possibilities to consider. Designing speakers is pretty good fun, and I would imagine very rewarding =)
Does anyone know of a piece of software that can convert digital IIR filter coefficients to passive or active analog circuits?
Thanks
I'm not going to offer any numbers here because in general I've felt this depended mostly on how high up the mid-woofer (or midrange driver) can play nicely before it breaks up. But the 1mm Xmax (p-p) on the HDS looks promising (compared to 0.5mm on the 27TBFC/G).
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