It is certainly true to say that they are not, for the most part, Classical Music listeners, that is very true.
I remember being at an AES meeting where SL was giving a talk on how to design a loudspeaker. He said "First you have to start with an SPL goal." - OK, so far so good. Then he said "85 dB is certainly sufficient." - 85 dB, really? True, everything else stems from that first assumption.
If it was meant that 85db (peaks 8-10db above that) as an average long term listening session is sufficient, then maybe yes.
Certainly he couldnt have meant 85db as top volume for the system. I think a 5W television can achieve that.
It makes no sense to design a loudspeaker for an "average long term" level. It has to handle the peaks. Even 85 dB long term is pretty low, but if you know the Orions you know that high volumes are not their forte.
I didnt properly define my statement. I meant thats fine for a listening criteria. That is, how do you most often listen to music. What I said defined my listening habits 70% of the time. But there are times I push things close to their limit. And during those times, I want to feel the bass surge through me. I want to hear those nuances buried 40db down in the mix. And I want it to be clean with no apparent strain on the system. For this, I find I need a system cable of 95-100db averages with 105-110db peaks. Distortion free peaks.
My 2 cents..
I've had the opportunity to spend quite a bit of time with high end loudspeakers of various types including close to six months with the Focal Grand Utopia BEs. More time with Quad 988s, various Audio Physic models and the bigger Genesis Loudspeakers… All the commercial designs were dramatically different and all pretty wonderful for different reasons. Not surprisingly, given a big enough room and the right gear, the Grand Utopias did things that really couldn't be equaled elsewhere. This is a 100% designed and build in house speaker. Given the proprietary drivers it isn't really possible to make something similar, but I don't think this is your goal.
I went through many of these same discussions when I decided that I was going to build a high end loudspeaker. I looked at many kits, but given that I worked for a loudspeaker manufacturer (and had a good deal of knowledge and access to the proper test equipment) I decided to go it alone and design my own speakers.
I began by defining the following:
- the music that I listen to: Acoustic Jazz, Classical Guitar, Rock, etc…
- bass requirements (in my case mid to high 30s in room was more than good. Just enough to give an acoustic bass some weight
- efficiency (my target was 90db)
The next step was to incorporate other beliefs into the above and basically balance/rank my set of compromises. I really wanted a simple design and also to use drivers well within their range…
what I ended up with was a MTM (approximately 1.5 cu/ft) with a pair of Eton 7-372s and a 1.2" Accuton ceramic tweeter. the crossover was 2nd order at about 2800Hz (if memory serves). I used top shelf wire, caps and coils and really tried to build an inert cabinet. The resulting speakers really delivered and I haven't had the urge to tinker for the last five years. I would like deeper bass extension, but that is just me. Many wouldn't find it necessary.
The whole "average listening" experience (plus the some more extreme cases) should be covered by a design like mine. They don't play pipe organ music like the Grand Utopias, but again, they are not giant 4-way loudspeakers. I doubt that I would have been as successful as I was if I had attempted to build a 4-way loudspeaker.
Everything is about compromise… You will not be able to get the midrange of Quad electrostatics with the impact and bass extension of Grand Utopias. You have to decide how little of each you can live with and go from there.
Nate
I've had the opportunity to spend quite a bit of time with high end loudspeakers of various types including close to six months with the Focal Grand Utopia BEs. More time with Quad 988s, various Audio Physic models and the bigger Genesis Loudspeakers… All the commercial designs were dramatically different and all pretty wonderful for different reasons. Not surprisingly, given a big enough room and the right gear, the Grand Utopias did things that really couldn't be equaled elsewhere. This is a 100% designed and build in house speaker. Given the proprietary drivers it isn't really possible to make something similar, but I don't think this is your goal.
I went through many of these same discussions when I decided that I was going to build a high end loudspeaker. I looked at many kits, but given that I worked for a loudspeaker manufacturer (and had a good deal of knowledge and access to the proper test equipment) I decided to go it alone and design my own speakers.
I began by defining the following:
- the music that I listen to: Acoustic Jazz, Classical Guitar, Rock, etc…
- bass requirements (in my case mid to high 30s in room was more than good. Just enough to give an acoustic bass some weight
- efficiency (my target was 90db)
The next step was to incorporate other beliefs into the above and basically balance/rank my set of compromises. I really wanted a simple design and also to use drivers well within their range…
what I ended up with was a MTM (approximately 1.5 cu/ft) with a pair of Eton 7-372s and a 1.2" Accuton ceramic tweeter. the crossover was 2nd order at about 2800Hz (if memory serves). I used top shelf wire, caps and coils and really tried to build an inert cabinet. The resulting speakers really delivered and I haven't had the urge to tinker for the last five years. I would like deeper bass extension, but that is just me. Many wouldn't find it necessary.
The whole "average listening" experience (plus the some more extreme cases) should be covered by a design like mine. They don't play pipe organ music like the Grand Utopias, but again, they are not giant 4-way loudspeakers. I doubt that I would have been as successful as I was if I had attempted to build a 4-way loudspeaker.
Everything is about compromise… You will not be able to get the midrange of Quad electrostatics with the impact and bass extension of Grand Utopias. You have to decide how little of each you can live with and go from there.
Nate
Don't be afraid to call or visit Madisound and speak with them about what you want. They are very helpful and can point you to a design to start.
Takes a lot of experience , that's not to say there are bad speakers being manufactured .
An example of great engineering ? Not all engineers or scientist can design great speakers, if it was really this easy, everyone would have one.
Omni, (dipoles) work very poorly in a dead room
It has a poorly designed x-over ....
For the record, SL is correct in assuming most listen at an 84db avg din, 4-8 db peaks for most of the compress run of the mill stuff , 10 -20 db for reference, direct to disc type recordings.
Now pop/rock music is very compressed and have a high noise floor, so most tend to play these louder , past observation is in the 88-90 db din range.
A few deaf ones love 96 -100+ db din, but not for long ..... 😀
Now pop/rock music is very compressed and have a high noise floor, so most tend to play these louder , past observation is in the 88-90 db din range.
A few deaf ones love 96 -100+ db din, but not for long ..... 😀
Very few people will be in a position to play at these extreme volumes in a domestic situation. Soon they will be using audio products of a different kind, squeezed in their lugholes.
The latest version of Orion will play louder than the older versions. The twin tweeter, Seas bass driver versions are certainly capable of very high SPL's to a level that most of the public would actually find offensive, although certainly not in the painfully loud Disco speaker territory, like Earls. Of course if you want to reproduce Motorhead live he is the go to guy.
To the OP, may I suggest going to a DIY speaker gathering and listening for yourself. Infinitely better than trying to decide based on other's opinions. Parts Express is having one this summer in Ohio. There are others.
Tech Talk forum sponsored by Parts Express is a good place to find these gatherings. Good luck.
Tech Talk forum sponsored by Parts Express is a good place to find these gatherings. Good luck.
@ a.wayne and rob g,
Have you ever started listening to a song that you enjoy that sounded good on your system and decided to turn it up so you can enjoy it more. When you do you are disappointed because the system makes it sound like you turned it up, the quality of the sound changes but still you know that the system is capable of producing much louder before you hear gross distortion. It just doesn't have an effortlessness about it, even at lower/normal levels?
Have you ever started listening to a song that you enjoy that sounded good on your system and decided to turn it up so you can enjoy it more. When you do you are disappointed because the system makes it sound like you turned it up, the quality of the sound changes but still you know that the system is capable of producing much louder before you hear gross distortion. It just doesn't have an effortlessness about it, even at lower/normal levels?
Hi Allen,
I do understand the concept of dynamic range. Of course there are benefits to a system that will play loud because it will be more comfortable at lower levels and have ample left for dynamic peaks.
Orion will be more than enough for most listeners in this regard in a typical home. However Gedlee speakers are going to be better for very VERY high levels. It really depends what you expect from a system.
My current system ... NO ! well unless i have it on one of the dinky toy amps..for the most part , i have always had a big system going back into the 70's. My smallest being when i was in college and it was still a large 3 way...
🙂
Horns suffer from dynamic compression too, they get shouty, everyone I have ever heard does that, aside, I do understand what you are saying , I have heard speakers that are unbalanced, low or high, that's just bad speaker design, sometimes it's bad speaker /amp interaction.
I have not heard the SL speaker, i do not agree with some of the design parameters and i have a bit of OB experience ( commercially) in a domestic environment, there should be no SPL issues from such a speaker. Granted if you have to exceed 100 db constantly , you need a bigger speaker ..
There is a very real difference in sound quality between speakers approaching 100db/W sensitivity and those that are lower than 90 db/W, regardless of how identical the FR response or polar response is of the speakers. Dynamic range is highly underrated, IMO, as a parameter of sound quality. It is what makes music sound alive.
Are you saying speakers with sensitivity over 100db have a better sound quality than speakers below 90db ..?
If so , i strongly disagree and don't believe you are comparing apples...
If so , i strongly disagree and don't believe you are comparing apples...
Yes, I'm saying that given similar FR and other measurements, a higher efficiency speaker will sound better than lower efficiency one. Not because it can play louder, but simply by virtue of its higher efficiency.
And I have no proof to back this up, except my own experience.
And I have no proof to back this up, except my own experience.
No problem, my experiences are different and suggest that is not so, well unless you are using the same 20 watt amp for both .. 🙂
interesting to note how amplifier distortion tend to decrease when above 1 watt , also very high efficiency speaker lack the ability to size and have far from a black background.
Well from observation ....
interesting to note how amplifier distortion tend to decrease when above 1 watt , also very high efficiency speaker lack the ability to size and have far from a black background.
Well from observation ....
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