Hello,
I've been considering building an Accuton two way floor standing speaker, but there is one aspect that I just can't move past. Typically, these drivers are great in the image, detail, transparency and resolution department but, with a few exceptions, have very poor tone quality. The exceptions would be Kharma, E.A. etc. and I was wondering if anyone here has any significant experience with these and how to cure their tone problem.
Thx in advance!
I've been considering building an Accuton two way floor standing speaker, but there is one aspect that I just can't move past. Typically, these drivers are great in the image, detail, transparency and resolution department but, with a few exceptions, have very poor tone quality. The exceptions would be Kharma, E.A. etc. and I was wondering if anyone here has any significant experience with these and how to cure their tone problem.
Thx in advance!
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Think 2.5 way.
The ".5" should help-out with baffle-step loss and provide the tonally quality you are missing.
The better Kharma's have very long ("tunnel-like") rear vented enclosures for their "mid.s". They are relatively low-volume enclosures, and to the best of my knowledge are not "tuned" for bass enhancement, but rather for a particular lower freq. "roll-off" that sum's well with the bass driver.
The ".5" driver or drivers should generally have a very low order low-pass/eq (ie. broad "over-lap" with the midrange) - and in that respect should NOT have any difficult break-up resonances to deal with.
The ".5" should help-out with baffle-step loss and provide the tonally quality you are missing.
The better Kharma's have very long ("tunnel-like") rear vented enclosures for their "mid.s". They are relatively low-volume enclosures, and to the best of my knowledge are not "tuned" for bass enhancement, but rather for a particular lower freq. "roll-off" that sum's well with the bass driver.
The ".5" driver or drivers should generally have a very low order low-pass/eq (ie. broad "over-lap" with the midrange) - and in that respect should NOT have any difficult break-up resonances to deal with.
Clashing:
Years ago I had Thiel 3.6 speakers and they were good but hard to drive. I have had Infinity 4.5, Maggies, various electrostatics etc. and while they all sounded good I now own a 4 way horn system and my search has pretty much ended.
I know you are looking for help with a design using Accuton drivers, but I doubt you would be happy in the long run with a 2 way design using those drivers unless you are willing to accept large compromises at both ends of the frequency response.
On the other hand you can get compression drivers that will cover from 600hz-16,000hz and still sound good, Then you can get a pair of say 12" Beyma or B&c drivers per cabinet and still be close to the cost of the high end Accuton drivers. The horns you can get from www.diyaudiogroup amongst others and have a much more full range system along with higher sensitivity and simpler crossovers. Just my opinion.
If you want to stick with the Accuton drivers then I say go for it. The journey can be rewarding and fun. I just wish someone I knew turned me on to horns a long time ago !!! Good luck.
Years ago I had Thiel 3.6 speakers and they were good but hard to drive. I have had Infinity 4.5, Maggies, various electrostatics etc. and while they all sounded good I now own a 4 way horn system and my search has pretty much ended.
I know you are looking for help with a design using Accuton drivers, but I doubt you would be happy in the long run with a 2 way design using those drivers unless you are willing to accept large compromises at both ends of the frequency response.
On the other hand you can get compression drivers that will cover from 600hz-16,000hz and still sound good, Then you can get a pair of say 12" Beyma or B&c drivers per cabinet and still be close to the cost of the high end Accuton drivers. The horns you can get from www.diyaudiogroup amongst others and have a much more full range system along with higher sensitivity and simpler crossovers. Just my opinion.
If you want to stick with the Accuton drivers then I say go for it. The journey can be rewarding and fun. I just wish someone I knew turned me on to horns a long time ago !!! Good luck.
These would make no compromise regarding both ends of FR,
assuming the numbers are correct.
Accuton C176-6-191E; Fs=33 Hz; Vas= 33 lit; Qt= 0,32
Accuton C25-6-012
F3=40 Hz in a ported Vbox=23 lit
Other models with stronger magnets would limit the bass output
some more and then your statement about compromise would apply.
If I had any doubt about drivers, I'd be looking for a Marten dealer
and ask to audition a Heritage Duke 2 and still bear in mind that
manufacturer could have chosen a low Qt bassmid driver.
vuki or should I say Mr. V.
long time no see. I enjoyed the HiFi times so much more while you were
still engaged in the business. Good to have you here
.
long time no see. I enjoyed the HiFi times so much more while you were
still engaged in the business. Good to have you here
.Clashing:
The " horn coloration thing " comes from a long time ago where there was poor, cheap and poorly implemented horn designs. Today you have many choices of well made and engineered horns/wave guides to choose from.
You can never get " real " bass from a 6.5" woofer/midrange no matter how expensive or high quality the drive is. If you do not have room for a larger speaker system then I understand you choice. There are lots of choices out there however and I think you can get more/better sound for the money then buying Accuton drivers. Just my opinion and experience.
Lojzek:
I can only find Accuton driver # C173-6-191E here in the USA but if the driver you are talking about is a 6.5" driver then my comments to Clashing apply to you also. There would be no comparison between a 2 way system designed around a 6.5" woofer against a good compression driver/horn over a good 12" driver like Beyma, B&C, PD etc. Your system would sound " SMALL " by comparison and less life-like.
The " horn coloration thing " comes from a long time ago where there was poor, cheap and poorly implemented horn designs. Today you have many choices of well made and engineered horns/wave guides to choose from.
You can never get " real " bass from a 6.5" woofer/midrange no matter how expensive or high quality the drive is. If you do not have room for a larger speaker system then I understand you choice. There are lots of choices out there however and I think you can get more/better sound for the money then buying Accuton drivers. Just my opinion and experience.
Lojzek:
I can only find Accuton driver # C173-6-191E here in the USA but if the driver you are talking about is a 6.5" driver then my comments to Clashing apply to you also. There would be no comparison between a 2 way system designed around a 6.5" woofer against a good compression driver/horn over a good 12" driver like Beyma, B&C, PD etc. Your system would sound " SMALL " by comparison and less life-like.
I once made a comment on the PE forum about 6.5s aren't good for subwoofers and couldn't make good bass...then got told I hadn't heard any properly done.
It's like saying, watermelon is better than cherries.
Hifi drivers have their advantages and their place, so do the
PA drivers.
winslow:
I posted here not to knock Accuton drivers but to offer a different path for around the same amount of money. The Accutons are excellent, high quality drivers. I have 4 pairs of Lowthers in different enclosures over the years and while they are excellent in a fairly narrow audio band they are now doing surround duty in my home theater. To me, its a matter of being able to get closer to a live performance and any 6.5" woofer is a big compromise towards that goal IMHO. Different strokes for different folks and that is fine with me but the LAWS of PHYSICS will not be denied !!!!
I posted here not to knock Accuton drivers but to offer a different path for around the same amount of money. The Accutons are excellent, high quality drivers. I have 4 pairs of Lowthers in different enclosures over the years and while they are excellent in a fairly narrow audio band they are now doing surround duty in my home theater. To me, its a matter of being able to get closer to a live performance and any 6.5" woofer is a big compromise towards that goal IMHO. Different strokes for different folks and that is fine with me but the LAWS of PHYSICS will not be denied !!!!
The last time I messed around with Accuton drivers they had pretty chaotic responses above the passband. Some high-end manufacturers let all the crud through with low-slope filters, and others use sharp 24 dB/octave crossovers with additional notch filters as needed.
If the manufacturer lets the crud through, there's a lot of debris in the 2~10 kHz band, and this has a negative impact on tonality. Put another way, instead of hearing the instruments, you hear the decay pattern of the driver, which overlays all of the sound all of the time.
The sharp-filtration approach demands precision design as well as pretty expensive passive crossover parts (mostly the capacitors). In this forum, most builders would attack the problem with active or digital crossovers, and bi-amp as necessary. That will sound very different than commercial speakers using the Accuton drivers ... the subjective balancing of the speaker is then up to you (many people prefer a slight tilt to the response favoring the bass).
1st off, Marten, those are some loudspeakers😀. Second, plz forgive my lack of horn knowledge , I will look into those. Oh and what r ur guys thoughts on the cell midbass? marten uses um in the 550k Coltrane supreme 2.
Clashing:
Since this DIY, with 1/3 of money for the cost of the Marten Dejango speaker you could ( with proper knowledge ) put together a killer horn system that would sonically far surpass the Marten system in performance.
Do not be so impressed with the Marten Coltrane Supreme---If the coat of all the drivers cost the company $18,000-$20,000 ( and I am being very generous here ) and another !5,000 for the cabinets ( again generous ) do you think it is worth $ 550,000k ? For $35,000k ( on the outside ) you can DIY a state of the art horn system using the best drivers on the planet that will eat the Coltrane for breakfast sonically !!!
I have been to almost every major High End Audio Show in the U.S. since 2000 and listened to almost every good speaker/electronics on the planet ( Big Wilsons, Big MBL etc. ) and my conclusions are-----No conventional speaker system can rival a large, properly built horn system in realism, dynamics, and efficiency.
You can argue looks, size, price etc. but performance wise there is no contest IMHO.
Since this DIY, with 1/3 of money for the cost of the Marten Dejango speaker you could ( with proper knowledge ) put together a killer horn system that would sonically far surpass the Marten system in performance.
Do not be so impressed with the Marten Coltrane Supreme---If the coat of all the drivers cost the company $18,000-$20,000 ( and I am being very generous here ) and another !5,000 for the cabinets ( again generous ) do you think it is worth $ 550,000k ? For $35,000k ( on the outside ) you can DIY a state of the art horn system using the best drivers on the planet that will eat the Coltrane for breakfast sonically !!!
I have been to almost every major High End Audio Show in the U.S. since 2000 and listened to almost every good speaker/electronics on the planet ( Big Wilsons, Big MBL etc. ) and my conclusions are-----No conventional speaker system can rival a large, properly built horn system in realism, dynamics, and efficiency.
You can argue looks, size, price etc. but performance wise there is no contest IMHO.
Look I see ur point about horns so I will open up a new thread on that or u can pm but to be fair to the martens, the tweeters used r custom and cost 10k a pop (diamond) also the cabinet is mostly carbon fiber with wood accents and consider the fact they have over head and research design
When you have the place for a floor standing speaker you're better with a 2.5 or 3 way.
In bass there's no substitute for sd (cone area), for big realistic sound you really need low bass.
A 3-way will also relieve the mid driver from bass duties = lower distortion.
Plus you get more options in voicing the speaker, but at a price: the design becomes much more complex.
I find the Accutons excellent in portraying a holographic soundstage.
But to get them right it takes a good crossover, cabinet and damping.
For my Accutons mids I used a small cabinet with an aperiodic vent, sounds really good.
When selecting a driver take one with no severe cone breakups, +10db cone breakups is a nightmare to work with.
Accuton solved the cone breakup on some of their models by adding anti-resonant cutout fills in the ceramic cone.
After more than a year I'm still impressed by the sound I get from my speakers 🙂
Regards,
Danny
In bass there's no substitute for sd (cone area), for big realistic sound you really need low bass.
A 3-way will also relieve the mid driver from bass duties = lower distortion.
Plus you get more options in voicing the speaker, but at a price: the design becomes much more complex.
I find the Accutons excellent in portraying a holographic soundstage.
But to get them right it takes a good crossover, cabinet and damping.
For my Accutons mids I used a small cabinet with an aperiodic vent, sounds really good.
When selecting a driver take one with no severe cone breakups, +10db cone breakups is a nightmare to work with.
Accuton solved the cone breakup on some of their models by adding anti-resonant cutout fills in the ceramic cone.
After more than a year I'm still impressed by the sound I get from my speakers 🙂
Regards,
Danny
Clashing:
The point I am trying to make that as a DIY person you have many options to better almost all commercial products because--- you are not doing it to make a profit.
Once you enter audio as a business, the entire equation changes. You have all the expenses of any other business, like personnel, rent, taxes, R&D, profit, materials, and many other expenses so your product is priced accordingly.
I am not knocking ANY audio company but this is DIY where you put your time, labor, money, knowledge, into a project for the economics, size, style, technology etc. to the level you choose.
No matter what cost, size, technology you build into a speaker, it will ALWAYS be a compromise in comparison with the recreation of a live musical event. DIY enables you to tailor those compromises to your budget, room, expectations etc.
The point I am trying to make that as a DIY person you have many options to better almost all commercial products because--- you are not doing it to make a profit.
Once you enter audio as a business, the entire equation changes. You have all the expenses of any other business, like personnel, rent, taxes, R&D, profit, materials, and many other expenses so your product is priced accordingly.
I am not knocking ANY audio company but this is DIY where you put your time, labor, money, knowledge, into a project for the economics, size, style, technology etc. to the level you choose.
No matter what cost, size, technology you build into a speaker, it will ALWAYS be a compromise in comparison with the recreation of a live musical event. DIY enables you to tailor those compromises to your budget, room, expectations etc.
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