As the title says and just thought I should share, these arrived today form falcon acoustics, who currently have them on offer for just £25.07 inc VAT, considering zaph reviewed them as 'built more like a $200 driver' and 'near scan-speak distortion levels' I'm very excited about using them.
I've plugged them in for a quick listen and they sound superb out the box, you could almost run them as full-range drivers... almost.
Currently planning on using seas tweeters (ordered two soft domes) but will play with a few and see which sound best, will also flip between 2nd order, 4th order, and various different capacitor brands in blind double tests, so hopefully we can start getting some straight forward answers!
p.s. anyone in the UK who can make it to london is welcome to get involved in double blind tests, I'll be working on these in June 😉
I've plugged them in for a quick listen and they sound superb out the box, you could almost run them as full-range drivers... almost.
Currently planning on using seas tweeters (ordered two soft domes) but will play with a few and see which sound best, will also flip between 2nd order, 4th order, and various different capacitor brands in blind double tests, so hopefully we can start getting some straight forward answers!
p.s. anyone in the UK who can make it to london is welcome to get involved in double blind tests, I'll be working on these in June 😉
Hi,
For the UK that is very decent pricing. I think your looking
at an elliptical x/o design (like the Zaph L18) rather than
more standard fare for your acoustic target, which likely
will be 4th order L/R acoustic at around 2KHz.
X/o design is certainly a challenge, and is not to be met
by aimless experimentation, it needs a lot more rigour.
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
rgds, sreten.
http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/downloads/SBA/5_SB15NRXC30-8.pdf
For the UK that is very decent pricing. I think your looking
at an elliptical x/o design (like the Zaph L18) rather than
more standard fare for your acoustic target, which likely
will be 4th order L/R acoustic at around 2KHz.
X/o design is certainly a challenge, and is not to be met
by aimless experimentation, it needs a lot more rigour.
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
rgds, sreten.
http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/downloads/SBA/5_SB15NRXC30-8.pdf
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Hi Sreten,
Can you clarify what you mean by elliptical xo design? this will be my first design from scratch, I played around with potential crossovers in passive 7 for a while before deciding they were right to work with. all of them looked like xo at about 2k, 2nd order with a lcr across the woofer to deal with the 5k bump or 4th order which deals with it anyway...
Stopped playing once I'd decided to order the drivers as I want to get actual FR/imp/phase measurements from the drivers in situ before I go any further.
Can you clarify what you mean by elliptical xo design? this will be my first design from scratch, I played around with potential crossovers in passive 7 for a while before deciding they were right to work with. all of them looked like xo at about 2k, 2nd order with a lcr across the woofer to deal with the 5k bump or 4th order which deals with it anyway...
Stopped playing once I'd decided to order the drivers as I want to get actual FR/imp/phase measurements from the drivers in situ before I go any further.
Hi,
Zaph|Audio
Elliptical x/o design is including a notch in the low pass, rather
than than just chucking low pass sections at the problem.
Electrically it is not a monotonic low pass, also note the BSC :
The acoustic result may or may not be a monotonic low pass.
This isn't monotonic, but the wiggles at 7KHz+ are near irrelevant.
The low pass is very near 4th order L/R acoustic. The high pass is deliberately
not quite 4th order L/R acoustic, to align the phase of the drivers due to the
forward offset of the tweeter, for a textbook reverse null 2" above the tweeter :
rgds, sreten.
Zaph|Audio
Elliptical x/o design is including a notch in the low pass, rather
than than just chucking low pass sections at the problem.
Electrically it is not a monotonic low pass, also note the BSC :
The acoustic result may or may not be a monotonic low pass.
This isn't monotonic, but the wiggles at 7KHz+ are near irrelevant.
The low pass is very near 4th order L/R acoustic. The high pass is deliberately
not quite 4th order L/R acoustic, to align the phase of the drivers due to the
forward offset of the tweeter, for a textbook reverse null 2" above the tweeter :
rgds, sreten.
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I've got a pair of the SB12NRX25-4's and they sound great. Very impressed with the build quality and the sound quality.
I think you are going to end up with a very nice little two way 🙂
Tony.
I think you are going to end up with a very nice little two way 🙂
Tony.
Yes, they are very nice drivers. Here are my measurements of the SBA 5.5”.
SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8
SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-4
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-4
Regards
/Göran
SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8
SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-4
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-4
Regards
/Göran
Great to here someone taking advantage of Falcons offer on SB Acoustic drivers, keep us posted I'll be interested in how you get on 😀
I like the ClarityCaps from Falcon if you get the correct values that is. I did a sound test on my Seas tweeter with a 6.8uF ClarityCap ESA against a 6.8uF Jantzen Superior and and there's not much difference. Bit more 'air' with the ClarityCap but the Jantzen slightly smoother, really not much in it.
I like the ClarityCaps from Falcon if you get the correct values that is. I did a sound test on my Seas tweeter with a 6.8uF ClarityCap ESA against a 6.8uF Jantzen Superior and and there's not much difference. Bit more 'air' with the ClarityCap but the Jantzen slightly smoother, really not much in it.
Stewart
Which Seas tweeter are you running? I went for a pair of 27TDFC's, interested to see how they compare to the other stuff i have laying around.
The idiot in me wants to spend a fortune on caps, the engineer says stop being an idiot. I've heard some very good sounding hi-end speakers with phenomal staging running bog std solens... that said, I've heard a lot of good things about the ESA's, and they're definately up there in the value ratings - things like mundorf supremes are simply not an option if I go for 4th order!
I'm pretty keen on trying the Audyn Plus from europe audio as well, unless you know a better UK supplier... as I said though, it's all jumping the gun a little at the moment, just wanted to share my excitment!
Which Seas tweeter are you running? I went for a pair of 27TDFC's, interested to see how they compare to the other stuff i have laying around.
The idiot in me wants to spend a fortune on caps, the engineer says stop being an idiot. I've heard some very good sounding hi-end speakers with phenomal staging running bog std solens... that said, I've heard a lot of good things about the ESA's, and they're definately up there in the value ratings - things like mundorf supremes are simply not an option if I go for 4th order!
I'm pretty keen on trying the Audyn Plus from europe audio as well, unless you know a better UK supplier... as I said though, it's all jumping the gun a little at the moment, just wanted to share my excitment!
Hi,
there is nothing flash about playing with capacitor types when
the actual value used is a halfarsed guess at what is required.
Like assuming a 4th order electrical will somehow do the job.
rgds, sreten.
there is nothing flash about playing with capacitor types when
the actual value used is a halfarsed guess at what is required.
Like assuming a 4th order electrical will somehow do the job.
rgds, sreten.
I don't blame you for sharing your excitement am glad you did because only last night I was thinking of ordering a pair because of the offer 🙂
I got the Seas 27TBFC/G hard dome and my friend has the Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT you will be happy with the tweeters too very similar sound to mine apparently and we are well pleased with them (we still need to sort the x-overs out properly though).
As for caps others on here will know more than me but I think if you take the x-over design advice from the others who have posted here then I'd be well happy getting the ClarityCaps from Falcon (free delivery too). I don't think caps have a great deal on overall sound but i'll never get electrolytic ones for x-overs.
I got the Seas 27TBFC/G hard dome and my friend has the Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT you will be happy with the tweeters too very similar sound to mine apparently and we are well pleased with them (we still need to sort the x-overs out properly though).
As for caps others on here will know more than me but I think if you take the x-over design advice from the others who have posted here then I'd be well happy getting the ClarityCaps from Falcon (free delivery too). I don't think caps have a great deal on overall sound but i'll never get electrolytic ones for x-overs.
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Who says it'll be halfarsed sreten?
I don't know if you suffer from aspergers sreten but you need to climb down off your high horse occasionally, I know this is a hobby with lots of possible solutions and many a strong opinion, but basic laws of physics and engineering still apply. To jump on pretty much every thread on the forums with a 'that's wrong', copy and paste the same old links over and over again then finally accuse people of not understanding things they've understood for a long time... you're everything that is wrong with this forum recently. Seriously man, what the hell is up with the attitude? I know you think you're better than everyone but:
1.You're not
2. You look like a troll when you make short statements like 'your wrong' without a full, proper explanation of yourself.
This isn't the first time you've jumped on one of my threads with a silly comment, obviously.
Hi,
You implied that 4th order crossovers would make certain
capacitors too expensive. You tell me what that really implies.
Rather than getting on your high horse about my comments.
rgds, sreten.
You can do BSC at line level, very useful for lower powered amplifiers.
You implied that 4th order crossovers would make certain
capacitors too expensive. You tell me what that really implies.
Rather than getting on your high horse about my comments.
rgds, sreten.
You can do BSC at line level, very useful for lower powered amplifiers.
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Running a 4th order would by nature need twice as many capacitors, 4 instead of 2 for a stereo pair, though this will eventually be a surround set up so 10 instead of 5.
They'll likely be of larger capacitance values.
Cost for 10 mundorf supremes using values taken from modelled simulations based on manufacturers data: approx £370. Price for 5 supremes: £140. The cost difference is not insignificant and is enough to warrant some double blind tests on capacitors once a suitable crossover has been modelled, then physically built and tested with cheap caps to confirm performance (i.e. solens). Inductors I'll either take the plunge for decent quality in the first place, or more likely prototype with some of the vast quantity I have laying around... and now I have a decent LC meter, winding my own inductors isn't out of the question either...
They'll likely be of larger capacitance values.
Cost for 10 mundorf supremes using values taken from modelled simulations based on manufacturers data: approx £370. Price for 5 supremes: £140. The cost difference is not insignificant and is enough to warrant some double blind tests on capacitors once a suitable crossover has been modelled, then physically built and tested with cheap caps to confirm performance (i.e. solens). Inductors I'll either take the plunge for decent quality in the first place, or more likely prototype with some of the vast quantity I have laying around... and now I have a decent LC meter, winding my own inductors isn't out of the question either...
Hi,
Well your missing the point 4th order acoustic doesn't mean that,
and that 4th order electrical really means your looking at around
6th order acoustic on the tweeter and whatever on the bassmid
and I'll stand by that is halfarsed guessing, it is usually not needed.
It is generally accepted the lowest order acoustic x/o that works
well with your drivers sounds the best, due to phase wrap issues.
And in that vein the lowest component count, allows better.
rgds, sreten.
Well your missing the point 4th order acoustic doesn't mean that,
and that 4th order electrical really means your looking at around
6th order acoustic on the tweeter and whatever on the bassmid
and I'll stand by that is halfarsed guessing, it is usually not needed.
It is generally accepted the lowest order acoustic x/o that works
well with your drivers sounds the best, due to phase wrap issues.
And in that vein the lowest component count, allows better.
rgds, sreten.
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regarding acoustic vs electronic slopes, I'm not missing any point, but you failed to stipulate any relevance until the later part of this most recent post.
Many people swear by 4th order, many by 1st, including major manufacturers.
By 'generally accepted' do you mean 'I have decided'?
In all my time on this forum and in reading loudspeaker design information, I have never come accross such a consensus of opinion.
I do agree with the principle of less components in the crossover is better, but I also believe that often people who swear by this philosophy do so because the complexities of a higher order electronic filter have eluded them.
I would also point out that the 3rd order (electrical) xo i used on my B&W re-builds sounded just as good, if not better than the proposed 1st order used by B&W. The main advantage to B&W was reduced component cost.
Ive never seen a consensus either about which order is the best
but those I trust the most swear by 1th order.
but those I trust the most swear by 1th order.
Guys lets keep the discussion technical and keep anything personal out of it. Thanks.
Another recommedation for:
5" SB15NRXC30-8
6” SB17NRX C 35-8-UC *think UC uncoated cone has more natural vocals
6” SB17NRX C 35-4
and the small physical chassis diameter, low Fs, large Xmax, "very good" sounding SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeter with a rim that can be trimmed down to provide just 30mm Center-to-Edge, which allows using a 6" with the same C-C of most 5" mated to a typical 100mm diameter tweeter.
Crossovers in the 1.8Khz to 2.0Khz range are becoming more popular for a 6" midrange with the goal of removing any polar pattern limitations from the midrange, as well as reducing lobing effects that develop with higher crossovers(poor C-C MT margin). In some cases, a lower Xover pushes the midrange cone break-up artifacts far enough away from the crossover to not require a serious RLC filter.
A Google of any of these drivers will yield several DIY designs with cabinets and crossover schematics to study.
5" SB15NRXC30-8
6” SB17NRX C 35-8-UC *think UC uncoated cone has more natural vocals
6” SB17NRX C 35-4
and the small physical chassis diameter, low Fs, large Xmax, "very good" sounding SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeter with a rim that can be trimmed down to provide just 30mm Center-to-Edge, which allows using a 6" with the same C-C of most 5" mated to a typical 100mm diameter tweeter.
Crossovers in the 1.8Khz to 2.0Khz range are becoming more popular for a 6" midrange with the goal of removing any polar pattern limitations from the midrange, as well as reducing lobing effects that develop with higher crossovers(poor C-C MT margin). In some cases, a lower Xover pushes the midrange cone break-up artifacts far enough away from the crossover to not require a serious RLC filter.
A Google of any of these drivers will yield several DIY designs with cabinets and crossover schematics to study.
These SB15NRXC30-8 drivers look good, but I was scratching my head what to do about a crossover because of the low inductance and lively upper region. 🙂
FWIW, SB Acoustics have a published design using that driver, the Elok:
SB Acoustics :: Elok
I think you could adapt that one easily enough. You double inductance and resistance and halve capacitance in the bass circuit for a single driver when modifying an MTM design. Then attenuate the tweeter about 4dB as a start.
FWIW, SB Acoustics have a published design using that driver, the Elok:
SB Acoustics :: Elok
I think you could adapt that one easily enough. You double inductance and resistance and halve capacitance in the bass circuit for a single driver when modifying an MTM design. Then attenuate the tweeter about 4dB as a start.