Hi everybody, first, sorry for my english: p
I have a pair of very old school box, which have a 12" Woofer + 5" midrange and 2 "tweeter, all of them are paper cone, they're played with a vintage receiver, 50W RMS at 8 ohms.
The result is very good, nice bass, smooth highs, all my friends get impressed with the SPL, because the complete box have a sensitivity of 94 dB and with 50W RMS shakes the walls ! But I have some fear of one drivers get burned and there is no more part to replace.
I really want build a sound good for home, i never listen the bookshelf systems, but I really think that's impossible to this 5"or 6" woofers have the same bass like 12" woofers, i said woofer because i dont want a "30Hz destroyer machine" with subwoofer, for example this old 12 "system is bass reflex tuned in 60 Hz and is beautiful.
But here in Brazil is not easy to find midrange and nice tweeters, most of sound components are to PA systems ...
Woofer of 10" and 12" have a great variety of quality and price, the problem is everything above 1500 HZ ~ 2000 Hz. Is a good ideia use a titanium compression driver with a horn in residential sound ?
This one is very commom in Brazil. https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--264-270
I have read in another topic tha a bigger compression driver is better, this one has a 1.7" voice coil.
What problems can I have in such a system? (I think that the selection of the waveguide is crucial 😱)
Some people told me to build a 15" + 8" + tweeter, them i'll have a great bass, a 8" until 4 ~5 kHz and the tweeter from above.
I'm a little lost at this design start 🙁
Thanks
I have a pair of very old school box, which have a 12" Woofer + 5" midrange and 2 "tweeter, all of them are paper cone, they're played with a vintage receiver, 50W RMS at 8 ohms.
The result is very good, nice bass, smooth highs, all my friends get impressed with the SPL, because the complete box have a sensitivity of 94 dB and with 50W RMS shakes the walls ! But I have some fear of one drivers get burned and there is no more part to replace.
I really want build a sound good for home, i never listen the bookshelf systems, but I really think that's impossible to this 5"or 6" woofers have the same bass like 12" woofers, i said woofer because i dont want a "30Hz destroyer machine" with subwoofer, for example this old 12 "system is bass reflex tuned in 60 Hz and is beautiful.
But here in Brazil is not easy to find midrange and nice tweeters, most of sound components are to PA systems ...
Woofer of 10" and 12" have a great variety of quality and price, the problem is everything above 1500 HZ ~ 2000 Hz. Is a good ideia use a titanium compression driver with a horn in residential sound ?
This one is very commom in Brazil. https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--264-270
I have read in another topic tha a bigger compression driver is better, this one has a 1.7" voice coil.
What problems can I have in such a system? (I think that the selection of the waveguide is crucial 😱)
Some people told me to build a 15" + 8" + tweeter, them i'll have a great bass, a 8" until 4 ~5 kHz and the tweeter from above.
I'm a little lost at this design start 🙁
Thanks
Yes, it is about the waveguide and no room reflections. You can make a two way with the 12" woofer. It is OK to use a 1" compression driver.
For home audio you do not need extreme SPL capabilities, so a 1" compression driver is fine down to ~1.5 kHz. Then you can mate it with a 12" woofer; you do not need a midrange in between. 15" / 8" / 1" is a more traditional public address approach.
What you want to build is similar to an 'Econowave', about which a lot has been written (including more expensive options). Something that is mentioned there is that titanium drivers have a nasty resonance around 10 - 15 kHz which sounds harsh. A parametric equalizer can fix it however.
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Here is a link to the eWave project. I've built 6 different versions of the eWave and they all sound great.
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Wiredbecker is selling the crossover boards again. They are inexpensive and well worth the price.
Here is his profile page with contact info:
wiredbecker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Wiredbecker is selling the crossover boards again. They are inexpensive and well worth the price.
Here is his profile page with contact info:
wiredbecker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Owww !
Is that i'm talking about ! Thank you !
The same driver(D220Ti) that here in Brazil you can find even in a bakery
The sad history is that is very dificult find good waveguides here, but i'll try..
Now another opinion, what about this 12" woofer ? This is a famous speaker manufacturer here in Brazil
Oversound | 12 STEEL 400
You'll want to cross at approximately 1500Hz so get something that holds to below this.
Until now everything ok: D220Ti + Waveguide
This waveguide i bought in a local shop, i saw some foruns in brazil that people use this waveguide and the result was very very good.
Now the woofer:
I have some option in same price range:
Selenium 12PW5: Datasheet
Selenium 12PW8: Datasheet
Oversound 12STEEL40 Datasheet
Snake ESV620: Datasheet
The 12PW8 looks like a powerfull version of 12PW5 but with less sensivity and worst parameters...
I want a little bit of reforcement in bass region because i wont use subwoofer, of course and i preffer house music, dance, Pop, etc..
This waveguide i bought in a local shop, i saw some foruns in brazil that people use this waveguide and the result was very very good.
Now the woofer:
I have some option in same price range:
Selenium 12PW5: Datasheet
Selenium 12PW8: Datasheet
Oversound 12STEEL40 Datasheet
Snake ESV620: Datasheet
The 12PW8 looks like a powerfull version of 12PW5 but with less sensivity and worst parameters...
I want a little bit of reforcement in bass region because i wont use subwoofer, of course and i preffer house music, dance, Pop, etc..
Attachments
Throw them in WinISD and see how they go. For those music genres I think you would want a lower cut off below 50 Hz, preferably below 40 Hz. For a given box size, tuning lower than what would give a flat alignment can be beneficial for a less boomy sound ( = relatively more kick / punch), as that reduces the low bass.
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Here with WinISD default aligment
12PW5:
V = 47L Fs = 43Hz
12PW8
V = 197L Fs = 34 Hz
12STEEL400
V = 51L Fs = 50Hz
ESV620
V = 38L Fs = 57Hz
If I fix que volume to 60 liter and Fs = 57 Hz, the response is that show in second image
I can relate some point
12PW5 has a almost flat curve response in datasheet until 2kHz, and 95dB of sensitivity, but f(-3dB) between 55Hz
12PW8 has a good bass reinforcement but 93dB of sensitivity, f(-3) = 50Hz, but the datasheet dont show the response curve.
12Steel400 is good at sensitivity 96dB, f(-3) ~ 53 Hz relatively flat curve until 2,5 kHz
I'm really lost 🙁
12PW5:
V = 47L Fs = 43Hz
12PW8
V = 197L Fs = 34 Hz
12STEEL400
V = 51L Fs = 50Hz
ESV620
V = 38L Fs = 57Hz
If I fix que volume to 60 liter and Fs = 57 Hz, the response is that show in second image
I can relate some point
12PW5 has a almost flat curve response in datasheet until 2kHz, and 95dB of sensitivity, but f(-3dB) between 55Hz
12PW8 has a good bass reinforcement but 93dB of sensitivity, f(-3) = 50Hz, but the datasheet dont show the response curve.
12Steel400 is good at sensitivity 96dB, f(-3) ~ 53 Hz relatively flat curve until 2,5 kHz
I'm really lost 🙁
Attachments
You are almost there! 😉
I think woofer choice is not that critical in this application. Most 12" PA woofers are fine up to the crossover point of ~1.5 kHz, so probably the 12PW8 is too. I would not pick the 12PW8 or ESV620-W as they have little documentation, meaning that you do not know what you are buying.
That leaves the 12PW5 and 12STEEL400. They are really similar in T/S parameters and efficiency, with the 12STEEL400 having a slightly better bass extension. This comes at a cost of a small 1dB lower efficiency*, compared to the 12PW5. Xmax figures are the same. Documentation on the 12PW5 is better (more information; frequency response graph is shown with less smoothing and a 50 dB vertical scale instead of 120 dB). I would buy the cheapest one.
* Efficiency at low frequencies can be calculated from T/S parameters. The 12STEEL40 has a lower calculated efficiency, but together with the better bass extension it still puts out the same absolute amount of sound at the lowest frequencies (say below 60 Hz).
I think woofer choice is not that critical in this application. Most 12" PA woofers are fine up to the crossover point of ~1.5 kHz, so probably the 12PW8 is too. I would not pick the 12PW8 or ESV620-W as they have little documentation, meaning that you do not know what you are buying.
That leaves the 12PW5 and 12STEEL400. They are really similar in T/S parameters and efficiency, with the 12STEEL400 having a slightly better bass extension. This comes at a cost of a small 1dB lower efficiency*, compared to the 12PW5. Xmax figures are the same. Documentation on the 12PW5 is better (more information; frequency response graph is shown with less smoothing and a 50 dB vertical scale instead of 120 dB). I would buy the cheapest one.
* Efficiency at low frequencies can be calculated from T/S parameters. The 12STEEL40 has a lower calculated efficiency, but together with the better bass extension it still puts out the same absolute amount of sound at the lowest frequencies (say below 60 Hz).
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Thank you soo much TBTL !
I was lost but now i'm only half lost 😎😎
The 12STEEL400 is the cheapest and can even be found in the bakery here in Brazil, it is very common.
I don't thinked about the crossover yet, but isn't diferente about all discussion in the topic of econowave in Audiokarma
12 dB with constant directivity 😀
I was lost but now i'm only half lost 😎😎
The 12STEEL400 is the cheapest and can even be found in the bakery here in Brazil, it is very common.
I don't thinked about the crossover yet, but isn't diferente about all discussion in the topic of econowave in Audiokarma
12 dB with constant directivity 😀
I'm thinkig here...
After some tests, i really doubt about how "flat curve" sounds good..
The vast majority of people listen systens in night clubs, domestics home theaters or mini systems with big subwoofer, light, etc... They are accustomed to the typical sound with many bass, mif range erased and a bit of high frequencies.
When i show my first test box for some friends, their first reaction was "Raise the bass man". In the receiver was +4 dB in 100 Hz, +2dB in 10 kHz and loudness active (+ 6 dB 60 Hz +6 dB 10 KHz)
In jazz music and 80s songs sounds delightful, but in eletronic music, pop, rap music, sounds like a "weaker system" and the voice becomes fiery.
I don't know if the MP3 format, or the way that new musics are mixed is the cause, but sometimes my will is build a big 15" subwoofer and one pair of 8" + Tweeter
Another problem as a floosrtanding, if i let the 12" + Compresison driver in the floor, when people get to party here in my house and walk in the room the mid and high frequency are fumbled by people walking. If i put the boxes above the floor, i lost the bass couple with the flor, anad more weaker bass...
I'm lost again 🙁
After some tests, i really doubt about how "flat curve" sounds good..
The vast majority of people listen systens in night clubs, domestics home theaters or mini systems with big subwoofer, light, etc... They are accustomed to the typical sound with many bass, mif range erased and a bit of high frequencies.
When i show my first test box for some friends, their first reaction was "Raise the bass man". In the receiver was +4 dB in 100 Hz, +2dB in 10 kHz and loudness active (+ 6 dB 60 Hz +6 dB 10 KHz)
In jazz music and 80s songs sounds delightful, but in eletronic music, pop, rap music, sounds like a "weaker system" and the voice becomes fiery.
I don't know if the MP3 format, or the way that new musics are mixed is the cause, but sometimes my will is build a big 15" subwoofer and one pair of 8" + Tweeter
Another problem as a floosrtanding, if i let the 12" + Compresison driver in the floor, when people get to party here in my house and walk in the room the mid and high frequency are fumbled by people walking. If i put the boxes above the floor, i lost the bass couple with the flor, anad more weaker bass...
I'm lost again 🙁
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