Hi, I’m going to build a pair of floor standing speaker. I have a certain number of drivers in my hand. They are 0.75" & 1" tweeters, 1.5" dome & 6.5” cone midranges, 8" & 10" woofers. I now have a problem to make a decision of what way I should go, between 3 or 4 ways. These are the sets that I try to match by myself.
3-way;
Tweeter: 1”
Midrange: 6.5”
Woofer: 10”
4-way;
Tweeter: 0.75”
Midrange: 1.5”
Mid-bass: 8”
Woofer: 10”
Crossover points are around 130 and 2500 Hz for 3 ways, and 130, 500 and 5,000 Hz for 4 ways. These are chosen according to the drivers are taken from commercial speakers.
I know that the best choice for most people is 3 way, but as I saw many hi-end designs were 4 ways in 80s. So, I’d like to know your opinion and suggestion. Thanks in advance.
3-way;
Tweeter: 1”
Midrange: 6.5”
Woofer: 10”
4-way;
Tweeter: 0.75”
Midrange: 1.5”
Mid-bass: 8”
Woofer: 10”
Crossover points are around 130 and 2500 Hz for 3 ways, and 130, 500 and 5,000 Hz for 4 ways. These are chosen according to the drivers are taken from commercial speakers.
I know that the best choice for most people is 3 way, but as I saw many hi-end designs were 4 ways in 80s. So, I’d like to know your opinion and suggestion. Thanks in advance.
The trouble with the 4 way is that the two tweeters end up being too far apart at the crossover.
Can you still hear the ~20 kHz region where the 1" might run out of steam?
Can you still hear the ~20 kHz region where the 1" might run out of steam?
If you go for the 6" midrange in the 3 way - I would opt. for a waveguide, so that you can cross closer to 2Khz, cause with 2500hz you run into beaming with the 6".
Heissmann-Acoustics | Tweeter with Waveguide | reviews
If you go for the 4 way - I would aim for a 4-5" midrange to get some more cone area, so that it can reach down to the 8" mid-bass.
Also - consider an active system - cause that will make it much easier to level the sensitivity between different driver options and make it more easy to adjust the filter without tons of different components.
Better use some money on an active system, than expensive drivers. A cheap SB driver will work much better when tuned good, than an expensive driver that are not fully dialed in.
Heissmann-Acoustics | Tweeter with Waveguide | reviews
If you go for the 4 way - I would aim for a 4-5" midrange to get some more cone area, so that it can reach down to the 8" mid-bass.
Also - consider an active system - cause that will make it much easier to level the sensitivity between different driver options and make it more easy to adjust the filter without tons of different components.
Better use some money on an active system, than expensive drivers. A cheap SB driver will work much better when tuned good, than an expensive driver that are not fully dialed in.
Depends on the drivers. Snell and Audio note combine a 3/4" tweeter with an 8" woofer. If the midrange has a smooth roll-off, then the 3/4" to 6.5" may work. If not I'd go 3-way with the 1" tweeter:
Tweeter 1"
Mid 6.5"
Woofer 10"
Four way seems far too complicated. My current diy speakers are a 2-way with a 10" midbass to 30mm tweeter.
Tweeter 1"
Mid 6.5"
Woofer 10"
Four way seems far too complicated. My current diy speakers are a 2-way with a 10" midbass to 30mm tweeter.
The three-way,
I like it that human voices are mostly done by one driver,
so no xo at 200-2500hz, 500hz is almost in the middle.
I like it that human voices are mostly done by one driver,
so no xo at 200-2500hz, 500hz is almost in the middle.
Without knowing the drivers I can't say. But if it were my build and it was going to be a passive XO then 1" tweeter 6" mid 8inch woofer and 10" low woofer as a .5 for some real kick in the low region
But as I say, it's crap shoot without knowing the drivers
But as I say, it's crap shoot without knowing the drivers
I agree that, without "knowing" the different planned drivers, a decision on 3 vs. 4 way cannot be credibly advised. One aspect has not even been considered yet: Directivity of the drivers! The sizes and on-axis responses alone are insufficient to decide cross over frequencies and filter characteristics in order to have a well sounding/performing speaker system. Knowing the drivers well, i.e. including their directivity, size, power handling, distortion over frequency and sound pressure will help a lot to arrive at a 3 vs. 4 way decision!
Regards,
Winfried
Regards,
Winfried
I really need to go back to the Wavecor waveguide tweeter thread with my tail between my legs, but in my defence I'm still tweaking the crossover.
The woofer is the Eminence Delta 10A and the tweeter is the Wavecor TWO30WA12 crossed at about 1050hz. There's no spitting or distortion, but I need to do more testing before I'm 100% sure it's ok crossing that low.
@fatmarley
Here's a hint from a Test. Well, sorry, it's in German, but the diagrams somehow speak for themselves. Especially the one measuring distortion supports the final recommendation to cross over steeply at 1200Hz or flatter at 1500Hz.
Greetings,
Winfried
Here's a hint from a Test. Well, sorry, it's in German, but the diagrams somehow speak for themselves. Especially the one measuring distortion supports the final recommendation to cross over steeply at 1200Hz or flatter at 1500Hz.
Greetings,
Winfried
"I saw many hi-end designs were 4 ways in 80s."
Year 2020 dome tweeters have significantly improved smooth, high frequency extension.
Year 2020 midranges have low-Le motors for dynamics and frequency extenstion, and advanced cone materials and construction to reduce cone break-up at higher frequency.
Year 2020 tweeter-midrange cabinets have deep cut edge bevels or quarter-rounds to reduce distortion from high frequency wall reflections.
=============
3-way;
Tweeter: 1”
Midrange: 6.5”
T-M crossover between 1,800-2,000Hz
------
10” Ported front-baffle woofer
or
12" Sealed side-baffle woofer. HTs favor narrow front baffles.
Year 2020 dome tweeters have significantly improved smooth, high frequency extension.
Year 2020 midranges have low-Le motors for dynamics and frequency extenstion, and advanced cone materials and construction to reduce cone break-up at higher frequency.
Year 2020 tweeter-midrange cabinets have deep cut edge bevels or quarter-rounds to reduce distortion from high frequency wall reflections.
=============
3-way;
Tweeter: 1”
Midrange: 6.5”
T-M crossover between 1,800-2,000Hz
------
10” Ported front-baffle woofer
or
12" Sealed side-baffle woofer. HTs favor narrow front baffles.
I never had the chance to listen to a 4 way speaker in general, but what I read so far about speakers design suggests me a question: which crossover technology would you use?
Now I am building an overcomplicated 4 way system, but this choice is tightly related to the fact that I will use digital FIR crossover filters and sealed enclosures. And one of the 4 drivers is a sub.
With passive crossovers, I don't know if having narrower, more comfy bands for the drivers outweights the "non-idealities" introduced by an additional XO.
And when I say I don't know, I really mean that I have no idea, I don't mean that I think it doesn't.
Cheers,
Sergio
Now I am building an overcomplicated 4 way system, but this choice is tightly related to the fact that I will use digital FIR crossover filters and sealed enclosures. And one of the 4 drivers is a sub.
With passive crossovers, I don't know if having narrower, more comfy bands for the drivers outweights the "non-idealities" introduced by an additional XO.
And when I say I don't know, I really mean that I have no idea, I don't mean that I think it doesn't.
Cheers,
Sergio
Sregio, A short overtime.. please describe your DSP(HW? SW?) and ampliers
presscot, With a 3-way system, even bi-amping with an analog crossover can both simplify the passive crossover work, and improve both bass dynamics and integration.
^^^
This is where I have ended up lately
Back to the future rather than play with the DSP I bought
Still using low-end analogue stuff from Behringer at the low end and good passive crossovers at the mid-tweeter transition. I helps to have plenty of spare amplifiers sitting around
Why do some people find it ok to sacrifice 10Khz and above for the experience of a horn+compression driver but when it comes to entertaining a 4 way, its always a super tweeter instead of beefing up the hardest range to reproduce....
LineSource, I am going to use a software based DSP. The plan is to use equalizer APO and to generate the linear phase filters with rePhase. On the hardware side, I'll use a relatively affordable asus xonar U7. The idea is, that any 8 channel soudcard with a decent DAC can do the job. 6 of the amplifiers are planned to be point to point lm3886 chip amps. It's the most affordable option with decent performance. Since all of them are going to be band limited, and they will all drive 8 ohm drivers, the supply voltage will be high-ish, 35 - 36V.
The subs will rely on a irs2092 amplifier. I am not sure yet, but I think i will use a connex 2x400W. I need at least 300W per channel.
So far I just built the formworks for the speaker enclosures, that will be made of concrete.
The sub enclosures are independent from the main speakers enclosures, so i can decide the crossover frequency and relative positions so to minimize undesired room contributions. I don't plan to use heavy dsp room equalization.
When it will be done (and this pandemic is slowing things a bit) I'll tell you if it works or not 🙂
The subs will rely on a irs2092 amplifier. I am not sure yet, but I think i will use a connex 2x400W. I need at least 300W per channel.
So far I just built the formworks for the speaker enclosures, that will be made of concrete.
The sub enclosures are independent from the main speakers enclosures, so i can decide the crossover frequency and relative positions so to minimize undesired room contributions. I don't plan to use heavy dsp room equalization.
When it will be done (and this pandemic is slowing things a bit) I'll tell you if it works or not 🙂
Maybe they just focus to strongly on one thing and forget that it has to work together as a unity in the end.
Mostly no one hears anything above 16-17Khz. There is extemely little energy up there compared to improper midbass or sub frequencies.
My seas tweeter goes all into breakup at 27.000hz. Most people cant even measure this. I dampen it in the DSP to feel nice... But I dont think that I noticed before I did.
Well, my experience: A B&W N804 Dome Tweeter showed a Sharp/Narrow ~15dB Resonance at ~24kHz, compensated by DSP settings, made the sound of e.g. violins noticably smoother and softer; strong piano accords sound less "distorted" or "sharp".
just my 2 cents worth...
Regards,
Winfried
That's a nice detail - I'll check it out. Any specifik track that you can point out, that is particular annoying with this resonance?
Right now I work on having +/-1 dB from 600hz to above 18. It really makes a big difference, when things are smooth.