I would like to build an SUT for my Denon DL-103R.
According to Theanalogdept website the Cinemag CMQEE 3440A with a step-up ratio of 1:35.4 should be a very good match-up but with the Denon DL-103 [.3mV].
However, the output voltage of the 103R is 0.25mV. Will 0.05mV make a difference?
The 103R has a 14 Ohm internal impedance which is quite different to the standard 103's 40 Ohms.
Cheers,
According to Theanalogdept website the Cinemag CMQEE 3440A with a step-up ratio of 1:35.4 should be a very good match-up but with the Denon DL-103 [.3mV].
However, the output voltage of the 103R is 0.25mV. Will 0.05mV make a difference?
The 103R has a 14 Ohm internal impedance which is quite different to the standard 103's 40 Ohms.
Cheers,
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Read this. The math does not always hold up in the real world...
step-up transformers for Denon cartridges
step-up transformers for Denon cartridges
A 'typical' MM phono stage has 40dB (100x) gain and expects an input of 5mV.
This means you need to have a 1:20 SUT, with a D103R.
Which delivers a load to the cartridge of 47000 / 20^2 ... 118 ohms.
With the D103R having a 14 ohm coil impedance - the minimum load should really be 140 ohms (10x coil impedance) ... so a 1:20 SUT is not really ideal.
However, a 1:15 SUT will deliver 3.75mV from the D103R - so if your MM phono stage has a higher-than-normal gain (say 43dB) ... then this should work well. And this delivers a load of 209 ohms - which is in the right ballpark.
If you like DIY - why not build a head amp (rather than a SUT)? This allows the load to be set independent of the gain and would allow you to have a load of, say, 500 ohms (which several of my customers have said is the loading which allows the D103R to deliver its best sound).
Andy
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The Cinemag CMQEE 3440AH is better...
and sounds better. I have these in my SUT and they sound great!
and sounds better. I have these in my SUT and they sound great!
My preamp - Uesugi U-BROS-1 - has three phono inputs 1 and 2 are standard, input 3 is high level, I have no idea what the gain is, specifications are not available anywhere. A while ago, I posted a topic on Stereo.net.au since Australians are more familiar with Japanese brands - Uesugi, Shindo, Kondo, etc. - but still could not find any info or schematics. HiFi Engine only has brochures about Uesugi but no data.
Not well known outside Japan, Uesugi Brothers have a cult following in Japan for their electronics. The ‘brothers’ were instrumental in running tests on a lot of famous Japanese Hi-fi exotica while being employed at Stereo Sound magazine in Japan. The brothers were some of the founders of the Japanese hi-fi we know today. Their designs sat on the shelf to inspire Ken Shindo, Arte Forma, etc, while they were developing their own work. All UBros -1 pre amps were hand built and a piece of Japanese audio history and one of the best preamps ever made! Uesugi designed the pre to be far superior than McIntosh and Marantz. This is what I know so far.
However, the preamp in my system sounds fantastic it is a perfect match for my Berning ZH-230 and Tannoy Monitors.
Cheers,
Horacio
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Please note, I have not connected my Garrard to the system yet, I am listening through a Meridian CD player.
Unfortunately, "three phono inputs: 1 and 2 are standard, input 3 is high level " is not a simple description.
Does "inputs 1 and 2 are standard, input 3 is high level" mean:
* inputs 1 and 2 are for LOMC carts, input 3 is for a HO (MM) cart?
* or inputs 1 and 2 are low gain (for MM carts), input 3 is high gain (for a LOMC cart)?
If you can determine what the loading is Phono 1,2 & 3 ... this will confirm what they are intended to be used for.
Andy
If I had the answer I would have solved the problem by myself. I posted what is printed on the face plate, I have no means to find what the loadings are, I have no test equipment.
Cheers,
Cheers,
Good point! 🙂 Do you have a TT set up? If so - is the cart a LO MC ... or a HO MM?
If it's a LO MC:
1. turn down the vol control a bit.
2. plug the phono cable into Phono 1 ... and see what the volume level is like. If it's only a bit lower than what your other source inputs deliver ... then it's probably an MC input.
3. if the volume level is absurdly low - so you have to turn up the vol control a lot, to be able to hear anything - then it must be a MM input.
4. plug the phono cable into Phono 2 and repeat. The output should be similar to Phono 1.
If it's a HO MM:
1. turn down the vol control a lot.
2. plug the phono cable into Phono 1 ... and see what the volume level is like. If this happens to be a MC input ... the output will be: a. loud and b. distorted (as the MM cart will be overloading the MC phono stage).
3. if the sound is only a bit lower than what your other source inputs deliver ... then it's probably an MM input.
4. plug the phono cable into Phono 2 and repeat. The output should be similar to Phono 1.
If you were able to take your preamp into a shop - or had a mate with a multimeter - they could use this to measure the resistance across each phono input.
Andy
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I do have a multimeter but I thought that more test equipment was needed. Do you have instructions on how to do the measurements, do I have to remove the cover?
I am setting up my Garrard in a new plinth, it is not ready yet.
I am setting up my Garrard in a new plinth, it is not ready yet.
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Excellent! Then do one of the following (in order of increasing difficulty) - without needing to remove the lid:
1. stick a spare RCA plug in one channel's phono input (into Phono 1 - then Phono 2 - then Phono 3).
Unscrew the barrel - so you can see the centre pin and the barrel connectors.
Select 'Ohms' on your meter and put one probe on each connector.
2. if you don't have an unused RCA plug ... plug one end of a spare RCA interconnect into the phono inputs and unscrew the barrel, to expose the connectors. Put one probe on each connector.
3. push one meter probe into the central hole on the phono RCA socket, with the other on the barrel of the socket. Given there's some insulation on the inside of the barrel ... you need to make sure the central probe contacts the metal female part of the RCA socket.
And I have to admit, the front panel (from your pic) ... totally confused me! 😀 It seems 'Japanese logic' is different to 'western logic'?
Andy
Andy, thanks mate,
Phono 1 and 2: 47.9K; phono 3 High: 49.2 K. So, how do we go from here?
Cheers
Phono 1 and 2: 47.9K; phono 3 High: 49.2 K. So, how do we go from here?
Cheers
NP at all, F1! 🙂
OK, so all 3 phono inputs give you, essentially 47K. That's a lot more useful to you than an input which is fixed on 100 ohms!
Before I go further ... you said your TT is not ready yet but is your cart a LO MC ... or a HO MM?
Andy
Here are the specs.
Specifications
Moving coil (MC) type
Output voltage: 0.25 mV (1 kHz, 50 mm/s horizontal direction)
Channel balance: 1 dB max. (1 kHz)
Channel separation: 25 dB min. (1 kHz)
Electrical impedance: 14 Ω/ohms ±20 %
Compliance: 5 x 10 -3 m/N (Using a 100 Hz record)
Stylus: 0.2 mm square solid diamond
Tracking force: 25 mN ± 3 mN (2.5 g ± 0.3 g)
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 45 kHz
Mass: 8.5 g
Load impedance: 100 Ω/ohms min. (40 Ω/ohms when using a transformer)
Specifications
Moving coil (MC) type
Output voltage: 0.25 mV (1 kHz, 50 mm/s horizontal direction)
Channel balance: 1 dB max. (1 kHz)
Channel separation: 25 dB min. (1 kHz)
Electrical impedance: 14 Ω/ohms ±20 %
Compliance: 5 x 10 -3 m/N (Using a 100 Hz record)
Stylus: 0.2 mm square solid diamond
Tracking force: 25 mN ± 3 mN (2.5 g ± 0.3 g)
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 45 kHz
Mass: 8.5 g
Load impedance: 100 Ω/ohms min. (40 Ω/ohms when using a transformer)
Thanks. Quite a low output ... and low compliance too. I hope the arm you have on your Garrard has a high effective mass (like, 25gm).
So ... how to find out what the phono inputs on your Uesugi preamp are? (Without any test equipment!)
Do you have a source with a volume control - CDP or tuner?
Andy
It is a full function preamp, please see photo.
SME 3009 S2 non-improved, 1 older model with front and rear rider weights, the other, newer, with rear rider weight only and Garrard 401.
SME 3009 S2 non-improved, 1 older model with front and rear rider weights, the other, newer, with rear rider weight only and Garrard 401.
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Sure, but what are the sources you feed into the preamp? CDP? Tuner? TV? Do any of these have a volume control?
I fear they have a too-light effective mass to bring out the best in your cart. The Vinyl Engine arm database shows the SME 3009 II as having a 12.5gm eff mass. (With the 'Improved' even lighter!)
Going to the VE Cartridge Resonance calculator and inputting '12.5gm' ... 8.5gm weight (say, 9gm with the bolts) and a compliance of 5 ... gives 15Hz resonance - well out of the 'green' area. 🙁
Andy
So far one one source, a Meridian 507, no volume control.
I am aware of the 3009 shortcomings, I have been communicating with chaps that have been successful mounting a 103R using different headshells. In my case I have an Ortofon, a Neumann, a FR, they are heavier than the original cheese grater SME headshell.
For example a Denon PCL 300 which itself is 15g plus a 3mm graphite stabilizer at 1.8g, to make up the shortfall in mass, is a great combo with a DL-103R.
Amusing: whatsbestforum shows the forum's owner turntable/cartridge set-up. A pair of old SME 3009 S2 mounted on an Air Force One £72.500 turntable. One arm has a ZYX Universe Premium £12.800 cartridge, the other a Van den Hul Colibri Signature Stradivarius, £9.000.
I am aware of the 3009 shortcomings, I have been communicating with chaps that have been successful mounting a 103R using different headshells. In my case I have an Ortofon, a Neumann, a FR, they are heavier than the original cheese grater SME headshell.
For example a Denon PCL 300 which itself is 15g plus a 3mm graphite stabilizer at 1.8g, to make up the shortfall in mass, is a great combo with a DL-103R.
Amusing: whatsbestforum shows the forum's owner turntable/cartridge set-up. A pair of old SME 3009 S2 mounted on an Air Force One £72.500 turntable. One arm has a ZYX Universe Premium £12.800 cartridge, the other a Van den Hul Colibri Signature Stradivarius, £9.000.
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Aah, that's a problem then. 🙁
What I was hoping could happen is that you could turn down the output of a source and feed it into Phono 1, Phono 2 and Phono 3, in turn - and see what the output level through your spkrs was. (You need the volume control, in order to be able to turn down the signal to almost nothing, to avoid overloading the phono inputs.)
The sound from your spkrs would sound weird (with boosted bass and reduced treble) ... but it would've enabled us to decide:
* whether Phono 1 & Phono 2 were MM and Phono 3 MC
* or Phono 1 & Phono 2 were MC and Phono 3 MM.
Aah, OK - yes, a heavy headshell would fix the eff. weight problem.
BTW, there are some wonderful wood bodies made for D103Rs - attached is a pic of a couple made by a local guy (now, sadly, deceased 🙁 ).
Andy
