Ok, something very general regarding vinyls... I have a very good set, my third one turntable 7kg platter, doze, tube RIAA classical, I am building tube amps by myself electronic engineer, lot of vinyl..
Vinyl sounds very natural - wide and deep scene, I even cannot compare with a CD, very very levels above, .. but last tracks are sounds distorted. I bought my favourite GnR album and Pink Floyd The Wall non remastered old edition, last tracks I got crazy to listen. How I should trust on this format?
Vinyl sounds very natural - wide and deep scene, I even cannot compare with a CD, very very levels above, .. but last tracks are sounds distorted. I bought my favourite GnR album and Pink Floyd The Wall non remastered old edition, last tracks I got crazy to listen. How I should trust on this format?
if its always last track in them middle of the record, sounds like needle misalignment
take that 'distorted' vinyl, and play it on other well aligned turntable and it will sound ok
take that 'distorted' vinyl, and play it on other well aligned turntable and it will sound ok
The later grooves are going by the stylus at a much slower velocity, so the fidelity is much lower
than for the earlier grooves. Also make sure that the tracking force is near the upper end of the range,
and readjust the skating. The alignment must be dead on, see Fremer's site.
Set-Up Tips | Analog Planet
I do not like first few grooves, always too much background noise, I think because the relative speed, plus my record cleaner is likely not doing good job there
never had issue with last tracks
never had issue with last tracks
Top brands like Colombia Masterworks, RCA dynagroove, Mercury Living presence, London Phase 4, I don't have distortion on any track. I do track at 1.5 g, my changer isn't low friction enough for 1 g. But a Shure M97 Era IV has sounded great for 52 years. Try a BIC 940 changer, they are about $40 used. But align the cartridge yourself. Just screwing it down left it tilted on my unit. I added a washer to one side in 1979, never looked back.
I clean my records under the faucet, rinse with DI water on the brands above. If I don't leave them out they don't get dirty. Capitol came dirty, must have been mastered in an open shed in the Mojave desert. All those pops and gravel on Beatles & Beach Boys, what a waste of vinyl. A 2017 Abbey Road from EMI, surface was quite silent.
I clean my records under the faucet, rinse with DI water on the brands above. If I don't leave them out they don't get dirty. Capitol came dirty, must have been mastered in an open shed in the Mojave desert. All those pops and gravel on Beatles & Beach Boys, what a waste of vinyl. A 2017 Abbey Road from EMI, surface was quite silent.
You have discovered the dreaded IGD (Inner Groove Distortion). Caused usually as some have said by alignment, but can also be seen with a conical stylus in cases and also if the record is used and has been played with an old nail.
It gets harder to track towards the inner side of records.
Things to look for include:
cartridge misalignment, diamond tip at end of its life, bad pressing, bad record condition, damaged tonearm bearings etc.
Things to look for include:
cartridge misalignment, diamond tip at end of its life, bad pressing, bad record condition, damaged tonearm bearings etc.
Calcium carbonate moved to here: First, are you sure these records are ok?
I bought many used records in my life and some of them had damaged inner grooves.When stylus become worn inner grooves will suffer first beacuse of their highest density. So, if previous owner was careless there is nothing you can do.
Bad pressing is another possibility, I had that problem with one inner track of K.Bush - Aerial album bought new and sealed.
Second is stylus. I have some records in perfect shape with heavy modulated grooves going almost to the end.
If I hear distortion on them its time to order new stylus. Never hesitate to replace stylus if you doubt its ok! If your budget is tight, rather get cheaper cartridge and replace stylus more frequently, than other way around.
For example, I like Grado Prestige cartridges, but with my last Blue1 I manage to play only 150 LPs before IGD started. Unexpectable short life, but I trusted my ears. Now I have new Red2 with some 10hrs of playing and no problems at all, except on already damaged records, of course.
I bought many used records in my life and some of them had damaged inner grooves.When stylus become worn inner grooves will suffer first beacuse of their highest density. So, if previous owner was careless there is nothing you can do.
Bad pressing is another possibility, I had that problem with one inner track of K.Bush - Aerial album bought new and sealed.
Second is stylus. I have some records in perfect shape with heavy modulated grooves going almost to the end.
If I hear distortion on them its time to order new stylus. Never hesitate to replace stylus if you doubt its ok! If your budget is tight, rather get cheaper cartridge and replace stylus more frequently, than other way around.
For example, I like Grado Prestige cartridges, but with my last Blue1 I manage to play only 150 LPs before IGD started. Unexpectable short life, but I trusted my ears. Now I have new Red2 with some 10hrs of playing and no problems at all, except on already damaged records, of course.
I would agree about the cartridge might be worn. Only time I had inner groove issues.
Enjoy the ride
Tom
Enjoy the ride
Tom
I don't know.. but cannot accept simply that inner tracks sounds distorted only if stylus or cartridge is damaged, in opposite if they are ok it seems that problem will be solved forever
May be lower velocity in inner tracks and track curve cause to difficulties of following the groove properly and on some records this is pretty much. More specific stylus profiles I heard that can improve the situation. If someone knows, please share
May be lower velocity in inner tracks and track curve cause to difficulties of following the groove properly and on some records this is pretty much. More specific stylus profiles I heard that can improve the situation. If someone knows, please share
I've had no trouble with inner groove over 2600 LP's and 3 cartridge types. All bog standard eliptical diamond tips. Recent Shure M97 Era IV, previous Grado FTE (broke diamond), previous 1961 Audio Dynamics Corp (couldn't play high volume ATCO 45's, outer or inner grooves, even with new stylus).
Something is wrong with your cartridge alignment, arm geometry, cartridge, stylus, anti-skate spring, arm bearings, or weight. My first successful turntable was a 1961 AR, and my successful record changer is a BIC 914 from 1979. All tracked at about 1 1/2 grams and none damaged a record except the broken tip Grado.
The previous record ripper was a RCA changer with ceramic cartridge tracking at about 5 grams. Mother bought it in 1963 with Top Value Stamps. It would rip the highs off a record in one play, even with a new stylus.
I suggest you go shopping. I quit playing LP's on the RCA record ripper because I could hear deterioration of precious Mercury Living Presence LP's in one play. The college had AR turntables in the library, so I bought one of those used in 1970. When I walked across the floor of my wood frame room, the arm of that unit would bounce across the record. I bought the replacement BIC 914 without an endorsement by consumer reports, or Stereo Review, or anybody. It was affordable, light enough and made in USA. It has been one of the best $80 I ever spent. I've played tens of thousands LP plays on it over 43 years, and only now has it developed a problem with friction in the platter bearing. It was too cheap looking for the burglar to bother carrying off last September, so it is the last survivor of my LP hobby. All 2600 albums are gone. He did leave the vacuum tube PAS2 & ST70; had a fear of high voltage or glass I suppose.
Something is wrong with your cartridge alignment, arm geometry, cartridge, stylus, anti-skate spring, arm bearings, or weight. My first successful turntable was a 1961 AR, and my successful record changer is a BIC 914 from 1979. All tracked at about 1 1/2 grams and none damaged a record except the broken tip Grado.
The previous record ripper was a RCA changer with ceramic cartridge tracking at about 5 grams. Mother bought it in 1963 with Top Value Stamps. It would rip the highs off a record in one play, even with a new stylus.
I suggest you go shopping. I quit playing LP's on the RCA record ripper because I could hear deterioration of precious Mercury Living Presence LP's in one play. The college had AR turntables in the library, so I bought one of those used in 1970. When I walked across the floor of my wood frame room, the arm of that unit would bounce across the record. I bought the replacement BIC 914 without an endorsement by consumer reports, or Stereo Review, or anybody. It was affordable, light enough and made in USA. It has been one of the best $80 I ever spent. I've played tens of thousands LP plays on it over 43 years, and only now has it developed a problem with friction in the platter bearing. It was too cheap looking for the burglar to bother carrying off last September, so it is the last survivor of my LP hobby. All 2600 albums are gone. He did leave the vacuum tube PAS2 & ST70; had a fear of high voltage or glass I suppose.
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yes, would agree with @powerpz on his comments.
@indianajo, would have been something to see before and after micro groove scope images of a record before and after play on your groove ripper. I know a lot of those older players were pretty rough on vinyl records......
@indianajo, would have been something to see before and after micro groove scope images of a record before and after play on your groove ripper. I know a lot of those older players were pretty rough on vinyl records......
If you think about narrow profile diamonds I had Ortofon 540mkII with FG70 (Fritz Gyger) stylus, so this is my experience:
Notable improvement on some records, but on some others terrible mistracking caused by stylus hitting the bottom of the groove.
In some cases, but not all, these were inner tracks. Few records were totally unlistenable with that stylus.
Thats the curse of Hi-End, good things are better, bad things are even worse.
Other problems were:
Very sensitive on surface damage. Even hairline scratches only visible under light were sometimes clearly audible.
Sometimes alot of dirt on diamond after playing, despite my records are cleaned in record-washer.
Ortofon claimed 1000 hrs of playing with proper care. I done everything "by the book", but IGD starded after some 600 LPs.
My verdict: stay on standard eliptical, best one you can afford.
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There can be some reasons for this.
- first: the antiskating is misaligned. Sometimes, if antiskationg doesn't work the way it should, inner grooves become unplayable
-second: the tonearm is misaligned. Go for a geometric template and proove that the tonearm is correct installed and that the mounted pick up system is working in the right geomety for playing a record
-third: The cartridge is misaligned on the tonearm. Proove that the tonearm height is correct for working with this cart, proove that the tracking weight is correct, proove that the cart is tracking correct with a test record. On those tracks, you can hear how good your cart can track a record. If it isn't able to track, at the inner grooves you will hear distortions
-fourth: Proove with what kind of sound materials those distortions occur. If not with every record, it should point to the cartridge, which may be worn out and doesn't track anylonger as it should do
-fifth: Proove, that your equipment is correct, that the record player is all set up and working correct.
-sixt: proove, that you use a working combination of tonearm and pick up system. The mass of the tonearm has to fit the indulgence of the needle. If it doesn't, go for a combination that fits better. If it doesn't fit actually, you may get unwanted vibrations into the system from the grooves, this can result in those vibrations to add for the self resonance of the whole tonearm- pick up system. Then it will result in unwanted distortions, too.
A record player system is a very complex audio device. Beside it plays music most often so la la, the majority of the tonearm-pick up- record player system combinations are suboptimal and therefore don't show the maximum performance of the whole system.
That is always the problem with the self composed combinations and a reason for the success of complete player systems like Linn LP12. Here the manufacturer only offers parts for this system that works together well, sometimes a synergistic effect can be shown.
- first: the antiskating is misaligned. Sometimes, if antiskationg doesn't work the way it should, inner grooves become unplayable
-second: the tonearm is misaligned. Go for a geometric template and proove that the tonearm is correct installed and that the mounted pick up system is working in the right geomety for playing a record
-third: The cartridge is misaligned on the tonearm. Proove that the tonearm height is correct for working with this cart, proove that the tracking weight is correct, proove that the cart is tracking correct with a test record. On those tracks, you can hear how good your cart can track a record. If it isn't able to track, at the inner grooves you will hear distortions
-fourth: Proove with what kind of sound materials those distortions occur. If not with every record, it should point to the cartridge, which may be worn out and doesn't track anylonger as it should do
-fifth: Proove, that your equipment is correct, that the record player is all set up and working correct.
-sixt: proove, that you use a working combination of tonearm and pick up system. The mass of the tonearm has to fit the indulgence of the needle. If it doesn't, go for a combination that fits better. If it doesn't fit actually, you may get unwanted vibrations into the system from the grooves, this can result in those vibrations to add for the self resonance of the whole tonearm- pick up system. Then it will result in unwanted distortions, too.
A record player system is a very complex audio device. Beside it plays music most often so la la, the majority of the tonearm-pick up- record player system combinations are suboptimal and therefore don't show the maximum performance of the whole system.
That is always the problem with the self composed combinations and a reason for the success of complete player systems like Linn LP12. Here the manufacturer only offers parts for this system that works together well, sometimes a synergistic effect can be shown.
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Ok Inner tracks distortion can be heard on 4 perfect tuned sets! Of course different - some records even don't have it, worse are distorted a bit even from the middle. @popeetheus, @Schmitz77, are you confirm that it is impossible to hear low quality of the inner tracks with a good-aligned set ?
Someone here mentioned - among the important things to avoid IGD - that the antiskating must be perfectly adjusted.
Actually the system can be roughly aligned, and in only one sector of the LP. The tangential error of the conventional arms will modify that "perfect" fit recommended by the manufacturer of the TT. The AS system does not matter, either by hanging weight (Lenco, SME, etc) magnet (Thorens, etc) torsion bar (Micro Seiki, I do not know others)
If we are very concerned about the effect of the IGD, we should adjust the AS for the final sector of the register, for example using an RX plate cut out to the exact shape of the LP, and observe the movement of the arm, you will have to stay still somewhere nearby to that sector of the LP.
PD:
I do not assume any responsibility for damage to the needle if great care is not taken when making this adjustment.😉
Actually the system can be roughly aligned, and in only one sector of the LP. The tangential error of the conventional arms will modify that "perfect" fit recommended by the manufacturer of the TT. The AS system does not matter, either by hanging weight (Lenco, SME, etc) magnet (Thorens, etc) torsion bar (Micro Seiki, I do not know others)
If we are very concerned about the effect of the IGD, we should adjust the AS for the final sector of the register, for example using an RX plate cut out to the exact shape of the LP, and observe the movement of the arm, you will have to stay still somewhere nearby to that sector of the LP.
PD:
I do not assume any responsibility for damage to the needle if great care is not taken when making this adjustment.😉
I wouldn't say that its impossible to audition, but what may be in theory is often irrelevant in practice. With my system, I hear absolutely no difference in audible quality when switching from beginning to the last track of an LP. The quality is defined by the same authority and richness of the music. No fine detail is missing, too.
If we could audition a decreasing tone quality from beginning to the end, this LP media would never have been accepted like it is. Lets say we hear a long track of Bruckner symphony which is all that is pressed on one side. It would be absolute devastating when the beginning would sound better than the end of this whole track. And it isn't indeed. It all sounds the same, from beginning to end of one side.
You have not given us a description of the distortion you hear. In what way? Balance? FR rolled off? FR spike? Sibilance? Backround noise? Sound stage diminished? Rumble? Wow, flutter? Ramble Tamble?