I want to Bi amp my hifi speakers so I am looking for a DSP power amp for the lows (300hz down).
I have found a few options but have no idea how they sound.
The list:
DYNACORD L1800FD
YAMAHA PX-5
CROWN XTI 2002
So the dynacord is classic A/B and the other two are class D.
Or what you you suggest? I want to drive 2x Peerless SLS 12 drivers, the main speakers are magnepan .7 driven with MC2 S800
Any thoughts?
I have found a few options but have no idea how they sound.
The list:
DYNACORD L1800FD
YAMAHA PX-5
CROWN XTI 2002
So the dynacord is classic A/B and the other two are class D.
Or what you you suggest? I want to drive 2x Peerless SLS 12 drivers, the main speakers are magnepan .7 driven with MC2 S800
Any thoughts?
For 300hz and down sound quality hardly comes into it, just get an amp with enough power to drive your speakers and you are good.
As for your candidates. I have never seen a Dynacord anything but I'm well aware of what that is, I own a bunch of EV professional equipment which is a Dyncord company, and all of that is very good gear. That amp will do a good job for you. I'm also a hugh Yamaha fanboy with a small pile of thier professional amplifiers and powered speakers. I don't have anything from that model line but I have 5 rack amps from the previous line and they have all been bulletproof, are exceptionally good sounding, and deliver the advertised power. I'm not a hugh fan of these Crown amplifiers, the DSP is more complicated to navigate than it needs to be and I'm not sure the amps deliver the rated power, but the XTi are well liked in the home theater forums so maybe it's just the environments where I have encountered the Crowns that is leaving a bad taste.
As for your candidates. I have never seen a Dynacord anything but I'm well aware of what that is, I own a bunch of EV professional equipment which is a Dyncord company, and all of that is very good gear. That amp will do a good job for you. I'm also a hugh Yamaha fanboy with a small pile of thier professional amplifiers and powered speakers. I don't have anything from that model line but I have 5 rack amps from the previous line and they have all been bulletproof, are exceptionally good sounding, and deliver the advertised power. I'm not a hugh fan of these Crown amplifiers, the DSP is more complicated to navigate than it needs to be and I'm not sure the amps deliver the rated power, but the XTi are well liked in the home theater forums so maybe it's just the environments where I have encountered the Crowns that is leaving a bad taste.
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I found the DSP on the crown CDI series a bit noisy (compared to non DSP crown amps) and basic, perhaps the XTI (2?) series is improved though. If your intending to use no DSP on the magnepan this won't work very well as the DSP amp has a delay for the signal to pass through and so without matching the delay for the higher frequency amplifier your woofers will always be lagging. I would suggest using a separate DSP and a 'dumb' amplifier in order to process the magnepans as well. Or sell the MC2 and use a 4ch DSP amp. Its hard to recommenced anything but a high end DSP amp though as the lower end options are quite compromised. One option could be to use Hypex fusion amps and put them in boxes (2*2ch plate amps) as these have an OK feature level DSP and good noise performance.
I listened by a friend that has goldmund power amps and biamping with crown xti2002 also the SLS 12 and
I didint hear the delay you are talking about! I think the DSP is very fast so maybe 2-3ms delay a question is this noticable in
the lower range of 300hz?
By the way have you any good DSP to recommend?
Yes its true a 4ch pro amp would solve all my problems but to find a good sonding one is not that easy! I like MC2 for the sound!
I have no idea how the DELTA series is sounding as they are class D.
I didint hear the delay you are talking about! I think the DSP is very fast so maybe 2-3ms delay a question is this noticable in
the lower range of 300hz?
By the way have you any good DSP to recommend?
Yes its true a 4ch pro amp would solve all my problems but to find a good sonding one is not that easy! I like MC2 for the sound!
I have no idea how the DELTA series is sounding as they are class D.
well in 3 mS sound has traveled 1m which is more than a wavelength at 300Hz so it might sound acceptable but not ideal acoustically. I like Symetrix DSPs I currently use 3x Radius AEC on various systems, they are very expensive new but used prices can be more reasonable, they are complex though and you have to make connections to terminal blocks which adds to installation time/faff.
Class D can be good, I use EXTRON XPA amps at home and they sound the same to me as my Yamaha P series (highly regarded amps) used to, but with way less power consumption. For PA use I am using Gisen amplifiers which also I have no sonic complaint with. I don't know what the supply is like in Slovenia but in the UK its possible to rent MC2 from pro audio companies so it might be worth trying out a Delta series on rental.
Class D can be good, I use EXTRON XPA amps at home and they sound the same to me as my Yamaha P series (highly regarded amps) used to, but with way less power consumption. For PA use I am using Gisen amplifiers which also I have no sonic complaint with. I don't know what the supply is like in Slovenia but in the UK its possible to rent MC2 from pro audio companies so it might be worth trying out a Delta series on rental.
@DIYspaceW
What did you end up getting?
Just circling back on this- another one of my woofer only bass amps failed, in light home use. This model/module has since been discontinued so there’s no direct replacement.
Whilst searching for a long term replacement, I’m looking for a four and two ohm stable amplifier in the short term. Minimum requirement is 32V in Zmin 3 ohms (350W)
@kipman725
What’s the deal with the Yamaha PX series?
VS the older series?
Do you know of any comparative measurements of Pascal, Powersoft, Lab Gruppen etc amplifiers.
What did you end up getting?
Just circling back on this- another one of my woofer only bass amps failed, in light home use. This model/module has since been discontinued so there’s no direct replacement.
Whilst searching for a long term replacement, I’m looking for a four and two ohm stable amplifier in the short term. Minimum requirement is 32V in Zmin 3 ohms (350W)
@kipman725
What’s the deal with the Yamaha PX series?
VS the older series?
Do you know of any comparative measurements of Pascal, Powersoft, Lab Gruppen etc amplifiers.
Production partner has tests of amps from powersoft at least: https://www.production-partner.de/test/
https://www.production-partner.de/shop/powersoft-x-serie/
https://www.production-partner.de/test/verstaerker-test-powersoft-t-serie-602-604/
https://www.production-partner.de/test/test-review-powersoft-quattrocanali-1204-dspd/
LAB:
https://www.production-partner.de/s...&utm_campaign=MDDP1051_labgruppen_plm_im_test
its kind of annoying if you don't read German as translating the .pdfs is a bit painful (EG figures don't translate etc.)
There is also this comparison of older generation PA amps:
https://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=30627
A few amps compared here:
https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/476-lukes-basic-amplifier-tests/
https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/917-robs-amp-tests/
Yamaha PX series I haven't used but is a completly new amp design compared to the older Yamaha amps as is Class-D rather than AB or AB with variable power supply (EE engine). Testing amps without a dedicated test stand is quite annoying as you have to get all the test equipment out and build things like dedicated high power loads. You also need a decent building supply (32A/230V typical). To top it off though there is a good chance of the amp blowing during testing or some other misshap.
https://www.production-partner.de/shop/powersoft-x-serie/
https://www.production-partner.de/test/verstaerker-test-powersoft-t-serie-602-604/
https://www.production-partner.de/test/test-review-powersoft-quattrocanali-1204-dspd/
LAB:
https://www.production-partner.de/s...&utm_campaign=MDDP1051_labgruppen_plm_im_test
its kind of annoying if you don't read German as translating the .pdfs is a bit painful (EG figures don't translate etc.)
There is also this comparison of older generation PA amps:
https://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=30627
A few amps compared here:
https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/476-lukes-basic-amplifier-tests/
https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/917-robs-amp-tests/
Yamaha PX series I haven't used but is a completly new amp design compared to the older Yamaha amps as is Class-D rather than AB or AB with variable power supply (EE engine). Testing amps without a dedicated test stand is quite annoying as you have to get all the test equipment out and build things like dedicated high power loads. You also need a decent building supply (32A/230V typical). To top it off though there is a good chance of the amp blowing during testing or some other misshap.
Thank you for providing those links.
I will study them later.
Re: language difficulties
Of course things like web browsers Chrome or Safari or Edge offer translation of websites.
But you may or may not know; automatic language translation via machine learning is now available on a few dedicated PDF readers, including Books app on iPadOS / iPhoneOS.
Of course, there may be other PDF translators that I not aware of.
Re: PA series- i look at the engineers spec suit and it seems OK for PA use but I have limited experience in that field. But it has been on the market for 5+ years; so not completely new; yes I’ve heard complaints about it not being as good as the old series; but that may be related to tradition / bias towards class D.
I’ve used iNuke series and heavy duty class H PA amplifiers and was less than satisfied with noisy fans in both; reliability in former and in the latter whose brand/model I can’t recall right now- It wasn’t transparent compared to a dual mono class A/B of about 180W/4 ohms that I put in its place. (Not enough for studio or home-hifi use)
If there’s any amplifiers that you think are worthy of a good test, please me know, I can do my best to arrange for them to be tested by www.erinsaudiocorner.com now that he has an Audio Precision and a few big chunky resistors.
@bikinpunk let’s me know if there’s anything on your radar that needs purchasing and shipping 😉🙏
I will study them later.
Re: language difficulties
Of course things like web browsers Chrome or Safari or Edge offer translation of websites.
But you may or may not know; automatic language translation via machine learning is now available on a few dedicated PDF readers, including Books app on iPadOS / iPhoneOS.
Of course, there may be other PDF translators that I not aware of.
Re: PA series- i look at the engineers spec suit and it seems OK for PA use but I have limited experience in that field. But it has been on the market for 5+ years; so not completely new; yes I’ve heard complaints about it not being as good as the old series; but that may be related to tradition / bias towards class D.
I’ve used iNuke series and heavy duty class H PA amplifiers and was less than satisfied with noisy fans in both; reliability in former and in the latter whose brand/model I can’t recall right now- It wasn’t transparent compared to a dual mono class A/B of about 180W/4 ohms that I put in its place. (Not enough for studio or home-hifi use)
If there’s any amplifiers that you think are worthy of a good test, please me know, I can do my best to arrange for them to be tested by www.erinsaudiocorner.com now that he has an Audio Precision and a few big chunky resistors.
@bikinpunk let’s me know if there’s anything on your radar that needs purchasing and shipping 😉🙏
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Well from a personal perspective I have quite a lot of Gisen amplifiers so seeing tests of the 4*4000W versions of those would be cool. Also the Admark amplifiers are quite popular and very high power. I tend to split into two catagories; subwoofer amps and amps for higher frequencies. For subwoofer amplifiers the most important specifications are around power output, noise (acoustic or electrical) or clip behavior are secondary. For higher frequencies I feel better if the amplifier is something like a lab Gruppen where its an object of known quality, it would probobly have to be quite a rubbish amplifier for me to actually hear a difference but psycologicaly knowing that you are using the best is good.
The issue with translation of the production partner pdfs is that the labels on the figures and captions are part of the image figure so all the automatic translation tools I have tried only act on the pdf text. Something like google lense would work though. Also even in German its possible to work it out.
If you look at the testing of the Powersoft amplifiers, used within their limitations (EG. the x4 is not a subwoofer amp) they are superior to the other manufacturers in that they prioritize high peak power and when pushed beyond what they are capable of have very good internal limiting to try and reduce the audibility of clipping. They are also not likely to blow up or shut down when subject to high duty cycle use, instead limiting power. However they are expensive even used and must be returned to an authorized service center for repair. For the same price as a used K10 I can buy two Gisen 4*4000W amplifiers giving 8 ch of amp for the price of 2. I can then put limiters in the DSP that prevent the Gisen from ever clipping and then (on subwoofers) have the same sonic experience. I started out with a NU6000, it was OK as long as it didn't clip but sounded bad on anything but sub and if clipped sounded bad on subs.
Regarding fan noise in PA amplifiers I started a thread on this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/quiet-pa-amps.339848/
From an electronic engineers perspective its kind of weird that any amplifiers are produced with poor SNR or clip behavriour or that blow up when subject to abuse, its not much harder to make something good than something bad!
The issue with translation of the production partner pdfs is that the labels on the figures and captions are part of the image figure so all the automatic translation tools I have tried only act on the pdf text. Something like google lense would work though. Also even in German its possible to work it out.
If you look at the testing of the Powersoft amplifiers, used within their limitations (EG. the x4 is not a subwoofer amp) they are superior to the other manufacturers in that they prioritize high peak power and when pushed beyond what they are capable of have very good internal limiting to try and reduce the audibility of clipping. They are also not likely to blow up or shut down when subject to high duty cycle use, instead limiting power. However they are expensive even used and must be returned to an authorized service center for repair. For the same price as a used K10 I can buy two Gisen 4*4000W amplifiers giving 8 ch of amp for the price of 2. I can then put limiters in the DSP that prevent the Gisen from ever clipping and then (on subwoofers) have the same sonic experience. I started out with a NU6000, it was OK as long as it didn't clip but sounded bad on anything but sub and if clipped sounded bad on subs.
Regarding fan noise in PA amplifiers I started a thread on this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/quiet-pa-amps.339848/
From an electronic engineers perspective its kind of weird that any amplifiers are produced with poor SNR or clip behavriour or that blow up when subject to abuse, its not much harder to make something good than something bad!
Actually, that never happened. I got (2) quotes back from AP: $34k and $40k, respectively. They weren't willing to budge on the price. At my rate it would take me a solid 5 years to gain that money back via YouTube (and that's if I'm making 8 videos/month). There's just no way.
No worries. That was when they were loaning me a unit to try out. But then when they gave me the quotes I couldn't do it. I was hopeful they would be more willing to work with me or offer me some sort of refurbished units but since they're the only game in town they didn't need to offer me any special pricing.
@jan.didden
Hello Jan,
Thanh here.
I hope you’re travelling well.
I am writing to request the purchase of an Autoranger, and have it sent to @bikinpunk for his testing and reviews of amplifiers / electronics at www.Erinsaudiocorner.com and his associated YouTube channel. As you may know, neither websites or YouTube channels are not golden handcuffs- we engineers do these things because it’s what drives us.
Here’s an example of an McIntosh amplifier he reviewed
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/electronics/mcintosh_mc462/
But unfortunately he no longer has access to the AP.
I was late on your first batch of AR in 2108. And unfortunately I must have not slipped you my email to be put on the mailinglist for subsequent batches. Here we find ourselves in 2023, in the midst of a global inflation surge.
Are you able to help? I wonder if we could acquire on, built and tested for less than USD $34,000 (ideally)
Best regards,
Thanh
Hello Jan,
Thanh here.
I hope you’re travelling well.
I am writing to request the purchase of an Autoranger, and have it sent to @bikinpunk for his testing and reviews of amplifiers / electronics at www.Erinsaudiocorner.com and his associated YouTube channel. As you may know, neither websites or YouTube channels are not golden handcuffs- we engineers do these things because it’s what drives us.
Here’s an example of an McIntosh amplifier he reviewed
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/electronics/mcintosh_mc462/
But unfortunately he no longer has access to the AP.
I was late on your first batch of AR in 2108. And unfortunately I must have not slipped you my email to be put on the mailinglist for subsequent batches. Here we find ourselves in 2023, in the midst of a global inflation surge.
Are you able to help? I wonder if we could acquire on, built and tested for less than USD $34,000 (ideally)
Best regards,
Thanh
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t.amp Quadro DSP 500, if the power and featureset is enough and you don't want to spend unnecessary money. I've had in my hand lots of the expensive stuff like Lab Gruppen, Nexo, Powersoft, Crown, Crest, Linea Research, L'Acoustics, and the t.amp, purely sound-wise, does no worse; surprisingly, actually even better / more honest, natural than some supposedly high end amps.
Look out for idle power draw. The Linea Research 44M20 I've had here recently drew f...ing 250w in idle. Insane. At least around 100 watts is normal for lots of the more powerful PA amps out there.
Look out for idle power draw. The Linea Research 44M20 I've had here recently drew f...ing 250w in idle. Insane. At least around 100 watts is normal for lots of the more powerful PA amps out there.
It's been a while since I've had the amp here. so I can't describe it to you in detail. But these 1 HE Class D amps always run quiet. I remember considering the Quadro 500 DSP as my home HiFi amp, so it must have been quiet too (maybe fans don't even turn on without serious load), and couldn't have any hiss / noise at idle on the outputs either; but no guarantees.
FWIW, I'm not surprised that a cheaper amp isn't any worse than something more expensive. Amplification is, generally, a solved problem. We can have lots of power with low distortion, often in compact packages.
Things change a little towards the edges of size/power/price, but in general, amplifiers will all sound similar while being run within their limits.
There are, however, things that are useful outside of sound quality:
- High efficiency
- Ability to work well on a wide range of mains power supplies
- Ability to work well when the mains supply is saggy/varying
- Extensive DSP like FIR processing
- Advanced limiters, including real power delivery, excursion, etc
- Ability to monitor amplifier status, temperature, mains voltage remotely
- Dante and other networked audio
In a lot of cases, my old rack of Behringer iNukes would have done a similar job. Having used and enjoyed the Powersoft T-series amps, however, I won't be going back.
Chris
@bikinpunk
Have you considered something like the Cosmos ADC & APU?
https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/cosmos-adc
https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/cosmos-apu
"Please, before you decide to buy Cosmos APU, make sure that you completely understand what is it. Analog Processing Unit is the first in its kind device on the market, hence, you need to understand do you really want:
a) to do the measurement of your DAC/AMP distortions@1kHz/10kHz at <-150/-130db harmonics level, or THD+N@1kHz down to -132db. In that case, you need the Notch part of Cosmos APU.
b) measuring your DAC/AMP DR/SNR with the residual APU's noise 130nVrms(A) with the Preamp of Cosmos APU."
....
Ivan has a Discord channel if we need to make any enquiries...
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