You’ve been a member here for over 8 years……time to start testing the ‘what it takes’ mantra and go for it! You’ve got a 2x4 DSP unit already. Folks here tend to spend too much time converting sighted simulations to objective results on the way to fantasy island. A proper 3 way speaker is IMO never a ‘bad idea’……….it’s just most often a poorly executed result hatched from a good idea.
Hi mayhem13
I appreciate the direct and honesty and constructive criticism.
I might have been a member for that long but my life revolves or better said gravitates towards the music making side.
Audio and audio systems was something that interested me and probably most of the people here, early in my childhood. Had an older brother who paved the way.
I started observing speakerbuilding diy around 2000-ish. Build some speakers arouznd 2003-5 cant remember though not completely by my self.
I hired someone to measure the speakers and design an x-over.
Then i started getting more into experimenting with sound itself and less with loudspeakers.
So while 8 years might seem a lot, i am merely a „passionate observer“ but realized i simply can`t tackle every thing i want and have to make sacrifices
here and there. One of them was , i did not do „intensive course“ kind of learning in speaker building but rather tried to stay up to date. I had my „hiatus“ once in a while but never could completely drop the subject cause i am simply fascinated by it.
I don`t have measuring equipment and even if i had i simply don`t have the time it would take to create something i can use for working on music.
I love your "time to start testing the ‘what it takes’ mantra and go for it!“ and find it motivating and nice of you to say.
However my life does not allow a deep project right now. I am not living alone and work does not allow me to do so.
Thats why i prefer to trust others to help me with my knowledge gap and try to help others when i am able to of help so it all stays in motion.
That said i still am open and calculating inside my head. You probably know how it goes.
I started by simply wanting to upgrade my tweeter but since i would need a x-over redesign one thing led to another and here i am playing dice with multiple designs inside my head.
Once again i want to repeat that i wish more people had your positive attitude.
Too many in these forums wake up on the wrong side of their bed and
voluntarily share their bad mood with others
So thank you for your words
I appreciate the direct and honesty and constructive criticism.
I might have been a member for that long but my life revolves or better said gravitates towards the music making side.
Audio and audio systems was something that interested me and probably most of the people here, early in my childhood. Had an older brother who paved the way.
I started observing speakerbuilding diy around 2000-ish. Build some speakers arouznd 2003-5 cant remember though not completely by my self.
I hired someone to measure the speakers and design an x-over.
Then i started getting more into experimenting with sound itself and less with loudspeakers.
So while 8 years might seem a lot, i am merely a „passionate observer“ but realized i simply can`t tackle every thing i want and have to make sacrifices
here and there. One of them was , i did not do „intensive course“ kind of learning in speaker building but rather tried to stay up to date. I had my „hiatus“ once in a while but never could completely drop the subject cause i am simply fascinated by it.
I don`t have measuring equipment and even if i had i simply don`t have the time it would take to create something i can use for working on music.
I love your "time to start testing the ‘what it takes’ mantra and go for it!“ and find it motivating and nice of you to say.
However my life does not allow a deep project right now. I am not living alone and work does not allow me to do so.
Thats why i prefer to trust others to help me with my knowledge gap and try to help others when i am able to of help so it all stays in motion.
That said i still am open and calculating inside my head. You probably know how it goes.
I started by simply wanting to upgrade my tweeter but since i would need a x-over redesign one thing led to another and here i am playing dice with multiple designs inside my head.
Once again i want to repeat that i wish more people had your positive attitude.
Too many in these forums wake up on the wrong side of their bed and
voluntarily share their bad mood with others
So thank you for your words
Yes i am happy . However i know from working with music that when high passing many times you introduce phase shifts or boosts near the corner frequency so i guess its probably similar but more serious when designing a speaker. So i would like to avoid starting with a mistake that can be avoided wit ha bit more knowledge gathering.
I love talking about these things and meeting like minded people.
Thanks.
From what i understand with my little brain is that the bigger issue in my plan is less the lowpass for the woofer and more what happens when i highpass the mid driver or better said the Mid+Tweeter which already have their working x-over designed for them…
I find it a bit confusing. At least confusing enough to now be certain what my first step should be or in what direction
Spankous if you treat the mid+tweet as a black box. And add you highpassfilter before the box. The introduced phaseshift in the new filter can be ignored. It is just a signal to the blackbox just as any other signal seen from the filters perspective.
I did this with a carlsson oa51 speaker, worked perfectly.
I wanted higher spl/lower thd, more direct/physical bass and mitigate a shortcoming in oa51 with this solution and succeeded on all points.
https://www.faktiskt.io/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2218543#p2218543
I crossed att 300-400hz to fullfill my requirements. A lower crossover for you doesnt make sense either.
Lower max spl/higher dist in midrange and more expensive inductors if crossed lower.
I did this with a carlsson oa51 speaker, worked perfectly.
I wanted higher spl/lower thd, more direct/physical bass and mitigate a shortcoming in oa51 with this solution and succeeded on all points.
https://www.faktiskt.io/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2218543#p2218543
I crossed att 300-400hz to fullfill my requirements. A lower crossover for you doesnt make sense either.
Lower max spl/higher dist in midrange and more expensive inductors if crossed lower.
"
Spankous if you treat the mid+tweet as a black box. And add you highpassfilter before the box. The introduced phaseshift in the new filter can be ignored. It is just a signal to the blackbox just as any other signal seen from the filters perspective.
I did this with a carlsson oa51 speaker, worked perfectly.
I wanted higher spl/lower thd, more direct/physical bass and mitigate a shortcoming in oa51 with this solution and succeeded on all points.
https://www.faktiskt.io/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2218543#p2218543
I crossed att 300-400hz to fullfill my requirements. A lower crossover for you doesnt make sense either.
Lower max spl/higher dist in midrange and more expensive inductors if crossed lower.“
Hey there. Thank you. Took a look and looks interesting.
What do oyu mean by „Black box“? you mean „as an indivudual satellite speaker“ in a way ?
I decided to go for a combo of my 15W woofer with a Sica 5.5 C 1.5 CP coaxial.
I dont mind crossing at 400 or higher. even 600hz. The 15W is fortunately very flexible in this regard.
What you suggest however is „high level“ for me currently cause i lack the knowledge of successfully calculating x-overs and capacitors .
I will have to use some online calculator and am a bit uncertain if this will be good or not.
Need to think a bit
Spankous if you treat the mid+tweet as a black box. And add you highpassfilter before the box. The introduced phaseshift in the new filter can be ignored. It is just a signal to the blackbox just as any other signal seen from the filters perspective.
I did this with a carlsson oa51 speaker, worked perfectly.
I wanted higher spl/lower thd, more direct/physical bass and mitigate a shortcoming in oa51 with this solution and succeeded on all points.
https://www.faktiskt.io/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=2218543#p2218543
I crossed att 300-400hz to fullfill my requirements. A lower crossover for you doesnt make sense either.
Lower max spl/higher dist in midrange and more expensive inductors if crossed lower.“
Hey there. Thank you. Took a look and looks interesting.
What do oyu mean by „Black box“? you mean „as an indivudual satellite speaker“ in a way ?
I decided to go for a combo of my 15W woofer with a Sica 5.5 C 1.5 CP coaxial.
I dont mind crossing at 400 or higher. even 600hz. The 15W is fortunately very flexible in this regard.
What you suggest however is „high level“ for me currently cause i lack the knowledge of successfully calculating x-overs and capacitors .
I will have to use some online calculator and am a bit uncertain if this will be good or not.
Need to think a bit
A few questions that I could'nt easily find in your writings.
1. Listening distance
2. max volume
3. precisely the driver and speakers you have at the moment
4. any personal preference towards given drivers, size of cabinet and so on
The coax is in my view a great way to go 👍
1. Listening distance
2. max volume
3. precisely the driver and speakers you have at the moment
4. any personal preference towards given drivers, size of cabinet and so on
The coax is in my view a great way to go 👍
Hello digitalthor . Thanks for chipping in
I don`t understand why on some posts i can „quote“ and on others i see no option so i wonder if the people i answer to see it?
1) My ears are 80-100cm from the speakers. So nearfield. That said, my priorities are ,Good Resolution even at very low levels
2) Volume wise i work low to medium levels 90% of the time. I have neighbors so this limits me. I crank it up for a few seconds ocassionally
to check the mix-master behavior at higher levels.
Lets say that i think that with these speakers max volume will not be an issue since they not even have to play deep bass and the
15W + Sica can take quite a pounding i think . The speakers are crossed to the sub at 80-ish Hz
I own a pair of Neumann Kh 80 and never reach their limits max volume wise though they compress
3) Scan Speak 15W 8530 K00 will be the Woofer. Sica 5.5 C 1.5 CP as Mid+High. Imaginary x-over 15w to Sica, 400-600hz
4) Yes , the cabinets will be very small. The lowest possible limit. the 15W will be in a 4.5L Sealed Enclosure in which it reaches around 80hz -f3.
The Sica will have around 1-1,5 liters sealed compartment
Grateful for any advice-opinions
I don`t understand why on some posts i can „quote“ and on others i see no option so i wonder if the people i answer to see it?
1) My ears are 80-100cm from the speakers. So nearfield. That said, my priorities are ,Good Resolution even at very low levels
2) Volume wise i work low to medium levels 90% of the time. I have neighbors so this limits me. I crank it up for a few seconds ocassionally
to check the mix-master behavior at higher levels.
Lets say that i think that with these speakers max volume will not be an issue since they not even have to play deep bass and the
15W + Sica can take quite a pounding i think . The speakers are crossed to the sub at 80-ish Hz
I own a pair of Neumann Kh 80 and never reach their limits max volume wise though they compress
3) Scan Speak 15W 8530 K00 will be the Woofer. Sica 5.5 C 1.5 CP as Mid+High. Imaginary x-over 15w to Sica, 400-600hz
4) Yes , the cabinets will be very small. The lowest possible limit. the 15W will be in a 4.5L Sealed Enclosure in which it reaches around 80hz -f3.
The Sica will have around 1-1,5 liters sealed compartment
Grateful for any advice-opinions
You have to mark that piece of text that you want to quote - when it's the last post you want to quote - then the "quote" sign emerge 👍
They compress? Besides that, they are good?
Have you checked out Heissmann:
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/
Also consider that your speaker can change its sound a lot, depending on its placement. So consider whether it is on a stand, a mount or on a table where you work
1) For the passive x-over ? Not sure i get the question. I have all drivers, x-over parts for the Sica + Amplifier
2) Audiophonics Nc 250 for the Sats . Sub is active
3) I already use subwoofer. I edited my post. The speakers will only play down to 80-90hz
4) Not calibrated mic if you meant this. Could get one. I have a Flex 2+4 TRS + Dirac but since it has only 4 channels output i could only
activate 15w+Sica and then run out of channels for the sub. Planning to get the FLex 8 but now out of reach financially
5) Speakers Passive for now. Sub is active
2) Audiophonics Nc 250 for the Sats . Sub is active
3) I already use subwoofer. I edited my post. The speakers will only play down to 80-90hz
4) Not calibrated mic if you meant this. Could get one. I have a Flex 2+4 TRS + Dirac but since it has only 4 channels output i could only
activate 15w+Sica and then run out of channels for the sub. Planning to get the FLex 8 but now out of reach financially
5) Speakers Passive for now. Sub is active
Thanks for the quote trick 🙂
I know heissman but i have the drivers i mentioned and want to use those. Heissman maybe in the future
"They compress? Besides that, they are good?“ Well they have a 4 inch woofer. If you crank it up it gets insanely loud but you feel the sound becoming
more „“2D“ instead of „3D“ if you get what i mean. You can hear they do it but dont like it. But i am talking insanely loud if you don`t have hearing issues that is. They are paired with a 10 inch sub and crossed at around 80hz
"Besides that, they are good?“ in my personal opinion one of the best studio monitors regardless of price.
I have heard a lot of speakers and studio speakers. These are super linear to an extend where an „audiophile“ might miss
„excitement“. I think they are not HiFi enough for HiFi people but perfect for mixing and mastering.
"Also consider that your speaker can change its sound a lot, depending on its placement. „
I am aware. I might be not good in speaker building cause i am not very experienced in speaker building but i have pretty decent ears and
use studio monitors for a fair while now. Regarding acoustics i would say i have a basic understanding but enough to know if someone
is bull….. me 🙂
The speakers will be in a Horizontal position (laying on their sides) like the Ks digital C88 etc .
After just completing a 3-way design and measuring it out, I would say that it is possible but not easy. The woofer usually limits most of the sensitivity for the setup. (Sometimes the mid or high might limit power but also depends on the crossover frequencies and bandwidths). When I finished mine, with a cross at 250 and 2500 Hz, I thought I was spending a lot for midrange parts that are contributing a small amount to the overall sound, as Schmutziger alluded to. I can see why two-ways or fullranges are popular now. In my experience, on my setup, crossing any higher than 250 Hz made the mid frequencies a little too directional coming from the larger, more directional woofer. This was after years of listening on an electronic crossover with all kinds of crossover frequencies/slopes/etc but no changes in my original driver set.
You could just add in a low passed woofer, potentially, and deal with a little overlap on the mid to low. A first order on the woofer is probably going to be half the cost of a first order on the mid and woofer, assuming you aren't doing something else to the response by adding that (the impedance of the current mid, for example, may be incompatible with the impedances you need to add for that. And you should really know the original crossover design to make sure this isn't the case.
My first design was an expensive, multislope crossover. My second was a cheaper alternative where the woofer is just a single order filter. I think it turned out pretty well. I think if you cross at 400 or 600 with this approach though, you are going to have the potential for muddy, overdone mid bass. In that case, you will want to high pass the speakers but you will lose some power and also potentially adding more interactions in the mid/high. Worst case, you may end up with some ringing.
You could just add in a low passed woofer, potentially, and deal with a little overlap on the mid to low. A first order on the woofer is probably going to be half the cost of a first order on the mid and woofer, assuming you aren't doing something else to the response by adding that (the impedance of the current mid, for example, may be incompatible with the impedances you need to add for that. And you should really know the original crossover design to make sure this isn't the case.
My first design was an expensive, multislope crossover. My second was a cheaper alternative where the woofer is just a single order filter. I think it turned out pretty well. I think if you cross at 400 or 600 with this approach though, you are going to have the potential for muddy, overdone mid bass. In that case, you will want to high pass the speakers but you will lose some power and also potentially adding more interactions in the mid/high. Worst case, you may end up with some ringing.
Calibrated measurement microphones are luckily not expensive anymore.
You could use your current equipment to test your 15W and Sica together in a test box, to understand better how the integration works... and for this, mono is ok - and you do not need to buy stuff.
If a fully successful construction with the 2 drivers become great. Then try and copy that as passive construction. Then save up and get 2 x FA123 from Hypex, since controlling the coax, would IMO be way easier with a DSP controlled active solution.
You could use your current equipment to test your 15W and Sica together in a test box, to understand better how the integration works... and for this, mono is ok - and you do not need to buy stuff.
If a fully successful construction with the 2 drivers become great. Then try and copy that as passive construction. Then save up and get 2 x FA123 from Hypex, since controlling the coax, would IMO be way easier with a DSP controlled active solution.
I assume the Neumann KH80's are active with some adjustments on the back.... have you tried to high pass them a bit, so that the little 4" do not need to compress that much?
Sounds like a good plan.
To the Hypex part. Hypex does not work with Mac. I don`t want to install and use parallels , windos etc just for this.
I find the MiniDsp flex unbeatable when it comes to ease of use and comfort and sound quality is fantastic. I am staying in this system Series.
The Flex 8 would give me 2x3 channels to completely
activate the sats and 2 channels left for subwoofers. But for now i cant afford it. cause its the flex and buying-changing my amb to a 6 channel solution.
All doable but at present too expensive.
So for now the only way is passive
"controlling the coax, would IMO be way easier with a DSP controlled active solution.“ Everything would be easier active but as i said.
No resources for now. This is the goal though. Maybe next Year.
Last edited:
Let me clear one thing out.
The Neumanns are 0% of my concern right now. I would change nothing at all. They are perfect.
"are active with some adjustments on the back“ yes and also have an ipad app where you can Parametric Eq and HP filters etc .
They are awesome.
They will stay. I will use them in parallel to the Diy ones so i have more than one reference for mixing and mastering.
"have you tried to high pass them a bit, so that the little 4" do not need to compress that much?“ i HP my monitors for years now.
I always run a Sub-Sat architecture as i like the sound the most . When i am saying „compress“ i am describing to you their limits.
Not that they compress in general. Just what happens if they are pushed to the max. They have integrated limiters so naturally they compress so they dont die and i find it normal that a 4 inch will compress at some point sooner than my 15W and bigger woofers.
But we are talking unhealthy levels that i never endure more than a few seconds when i am testing a mix heard loudly
Last edited:
Hmmm that sounds like it is a bit over my skillset for now.
I have the plans or better said the x-over for the SIca coax exists cause i ordered a kit.
So my issue is adding the 15W to this x-over. Which based by what i read in your response has a lot of potential of hit and miss.
When i started i thought it would be as easy as matching a sub to a satellite but this is much more complicated i see
👍
Next thing... try to look at when the Sica start to fall off - downward.... baffle step - according to the cabinet you wish to build. Your 15W can go pretty high, so flexibility is good.
Then simulate the 15W i in the same cabinet, and see where it starts to look like it has the most smooth response. This should make it easier to make the cross-over sum a give you the smoothest response in total.
Where it seems a little tricky - to me - is that you plan on putting the speaker sideways - on its side? Not sure directivity will be good like this. Why not build it like the Neumann?
I think it would be good to put them in the enclosure and measure them in the enclosure or what do you think?
However i have the issue that i have no good measuring room in order to measure free field.
How is measuring software nowadays? Is it capable to
calculate-exclude the room influence when measuring? i.e is there a trick that works at least half way?
This is an intentional „ignorance is bliss“ choice.
My arguments are
1) i am sitting very near and simply don`t like speakers „towering“ over me.
2) There are designs like the KS and others that seem to work. So if its good enough for them i trust them to be good enough for me.
I am aware that it will have downsides. That said i have also the KH 80 on their sides and even though the waveguide is obviously designed
for Horizontal dispersion , i did A-B testing switching positions and did not find the soundstage suffering too much at these super close distances i am listening at.
