Haha, exactly 🙂 And, for a person who has limited experience on wines has no extensive memory bank of wine taste, so any wine can be good, best they ever had as they might appreciate it on very shallow level, like any wine is great! Contrary, if another person has extensive memory bank of various wines, they might be able to position any particular wine they taste against that scale, in much more deeper level than the other person just because they had interest on it, which has developed experience.
If either person went and bought the exact same wine making equipment as their favorite winemaker, the first home brew isn't likely the same as their favorite wine. The more experienced one could likely position the home brew wine on the scale and notice how well it succeeded, and develop from there, while the inexperienced one might not notice anything, it's wine!🙂 Both could be equally happy from the perspective they have. Anyway, if you randomly talked with either person and they suggest some wine to you, it might be good or bad to you, but you would know it only after you have tasted it and compared it against your memory bank of wines. Or, if you knew their context and could relate it yours you might already guess before tasting it. Key is to know whether the memory bank matters you or not, and if it does, then only one person opinion is relevant to you, the one whose context you can relate to.
If either person went and bought the exact same wine making equipment as their favorite winemaker, the first home brew isn't likely the same as their favorite wine. The more experienced one could likely position the home brew wine on the scale and notice how well it succeeded, and develop from there, while the inexperienced one might not notice anything, it's wine!🙂 Both could be equally happy from the perspective they have. Anyway, if you randomly talked with either person and they suggest some wine to you, it might be good or bad to you, but you would know it only after you have tasted it and compared it against your memory bank of wines. Or, if you knew their context and could relate it yours you might already guess before tasting it. Key is to know whether the memory bank matters you or not, and if it does, then only one person opinion is relevant to you, the one whose context you can relate to.
Bit elistic yeah... I don't know anything about wines, some wines taste nice while some aren't that special but I think I never left anything in the glass 😀For sound, I just love listening and music so I'm at my own level with it, trying to learn more as it's interesting. Not sure how it relates to any of you others, I'm likely more similar than different than any other hobbyist on the forum, it's just fun to think about the stuff and writing helps thinking.
So, nothing is that black and white in general, because people are flexible and have various degree off interest and experience on any topic. Just do what ever feels fun, or what ever you are up to, it's different than some people and similar as some other people would do if they were in the same position, so just be yourself. Listen to music and enjoy wine if it's something you wanna do. Nowadays I steer away from alcohol in general, but music plays all the time. Anyway, going of topic.. please continue.
So, nothing is that black and white in general, because people are flexible and have various degree off interest and experience on any topic. Just do what ever feels fun, or what ever you are up to, it's different than some people and similar as some other people would do if they were in the same position, so just be yourself. Listen to music and enjoy wine if it's something you wanna do. Nowadays I steer away from alcohol in general, but music plays all the time. Anyway, going of topic.. please continue.
I can't answer this question, since I may say only what I noticed for what it's worth, in my humble opinion it seems that the test was done almost 20 years ago, the equipment does not seem to be in excellent condition, probably poorly matched and the 2-way loudspeakers so small and cheap are not sufficient as a good choice.
Not to mention the fact that a listener urged to provide a sensory description that is not exactly spontaneous can easily get it wrong.
Being happy is a beautiful goal. 🙂
I selected the above sentence from your appreciated and interesting comment because in my opinion it represents the synthesis of the complexity and contradictions possible in a context that you have explored in an extremely rational way and with plenty of right question marks that I really liked, in which it is not just a piece, like a TVC or a camera, but a chain of pieces that make the product of an infinity of interactions, interferences and convoluted electrical and electro-acoustic transduction paths come out of the speakers, which all together create something that in my opinion is absolutely impossible to synthesize in a mathematical model, or even simply shareable.
So if all this arbitrariness amuses us, well let's have fun!
Listening tests are meaningless because they provide no proof either to detractors or supporters and slow down rather than accelerate the evolution of a shareable audio.
If there ever will be one.
I believe it is a great illusion that like any other human activity is kept alive for existential and even irrational reasons.
hi thank you very much for your very valuable advice It is a complex task I have to break the system down to study and address the component that has the bigger impact on the overall sound taking out the room for now
After reading about this test i am quite confident that speakers deserve more attention They make the sound
I have some personal experience that changing amps did not change the sound dramatically
I have started learning more about drivers and speakers I have also bought instruments to measure them
It will be a long journey But also very exciting
Drivers study comes first They are like the raw materials in cooking If they are rotten no Gordon Ramsey can save them
As far as I know, trasducers (loudspeakers, headphones, phono-cartridges, microphones) are the most critical pieces of audio equipments, so I guess that your addressing seems in the right direction.
However, I believe that perhaps even more important seems to be a final appropriate matching of audio pieces for both electrical and sonic characteristics.
Except that the audio wines are made by food chemists, not winegrowers;-)
... who assess the taste on the basis of tables for fermentation times, alcohol values and yeast residues;-)
Thank you very much Yes you are right But first thing first Just to explain one lesson i have learned
Some years ago i bought to dome mids sure to have done the deal of the century Recently i purchased a DATS v3 to measure impedance and TS paramters
The two vintage drivers not only are out of specs but they measure differently one from the other
in a world not usable
since then i have decided to move to compression drivers because it is possible to get spare parts that are at least very similar
horns will be identical as magnets The diaphragms can be replaces if worn out It will be a final speaker system for my retirement
Hi and good morning This is very very true i mean the importance of the science
Years ago some countries used to make a lot of wine for instance but the taste was so so
Then expert winemakers moved to those countries and the result was amazing
The raw materials were good but badly processed Like to char a splendid filet mignon that even a dog will refuse
this is an extremely fascinating issue I am a chemical engineer by degree
I was very bad with engineering stuff and more decent in the lab Wrong school clearly
anyway ....
I've always wondered what makes Coca Cola a such worldwide success?
I'm sure that Eskimos like it as well as Africans
Not the English They either have beer or nothing But the English, you know They live on an island and think it's a continent Peculiar people
In short, I'm sure that inside Coca Cola there must be some compound that gives the drink an extremely pleasant taste
Fwiu they changed formulation some years ago but they have to go back to the original blend Original taste written on the bottles
Understanding the mechanisms of taste would have been a very fascinating research for me
what makes a drink a food taste good
I don't know if it's an urban legend but they had a competition of very good, fine and very expensive wines
One of the first classified was produced in a laboratory with a chemical process
The others were wines costing even 1000 usd/bottle
They asked the chemist how much it would cost to produce that wine
He answered in large quantities about 50 cents
I mean, one wine in terms of taste was comparable to another 2000 times more expensive
maybe this would also happen in hi-fi
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Hi Gino, I found your comment very interesting and I appreciate the way you described it, I selected the statement above to say the following.
The fact that the information provided by our senses is not comparable in quantitative terms to that of specific measuring instruments, if existing, is well known otherwise there would be no phonometers, just to give a random example, but instead we would determine dB sound level of a source "by ear".
The fact is that, barring more or less "mythological" episodes relating to epochal errors of testing a sense, it does not change the state of things, in my opinion.
The senses in general, and the sense of hearing in particular, when in good health and not affected by possible "interferences" even of a psychological nature, are apparatuses of superfine quality capable of perceiving superfine qualities in what they hear, but they are not (very) repeatable and are not comparable to a measuring instrument that evidently does not exist and that is able to electro-mechanically evaluate what we are instead able to hear.
And perhaps that instrument and that measurement will never exist also because what a machine will never be able to have is the psychology of a human brain.
For all of us a sound heard is not only a sound heard, but it is also a sound "interpreted" and inserted into a context of a certain precise experience, even if the conditions were random and not at all intentional.
Therefore, in my humble opinion, we should value the sense of hearing and prevent people from continuing to ask the impossible from a sense, whatever it may be.
By the way, everything that pertains to our known material world and which is studied and experimented by Physics does not seem to be free from errors or mistakes.
Just think of the possible misinterpretations of what is analyzed with the instruments.
And if those instruments are very precise that does not serve to reduce a conceptual mistake.
Back to the wines test, if the evaluation of a perception can even be wrong, it doesn't make everything else free from errors and mistakes of any kind.
I hope that your choice is well thought out and based on direct experiences that have lasted for a sufficiently long time.
I say this because I'm convinced that there is a profound meaning in the fact that certain speaker configurations are less widespread than others.
In order for your choice to stand the test of time unscathed, it must be carefully evaluated, in my humble opinion.
I'm sure you've done it before, but I wanted to say it anyway since from my very personal point of view, a choice like that based on the availability of spare parts wouldn't convince me.
Hi ! you are right I think that looking at what experts and professionals do is always very educational For instance if one visits the lab of a speakers company he will find instruments used for testing of parts, prototypes and finished products
This is the evidence that instruments are just essential
I believed that the right measurements can tell all we need Instruments can appreciate details in performance that no human ear can
It is just a matter to correlate listening sensations with some parameter
I am quite sure that expression like transparency haze harshness hardness in sound can be correlated with the electrical behaviour
FR CSD IMD can be very telling Moreover i am sure that some designers have developed some original testing signals that they use to get information on their products
But i know also that listening specific tracks played back on a system can be the faster way to check a system
For instance a speech with high level of distortion will be difficult to understand Human voice is also in the part of the spectrum where the ear is more sensitive
i agree Fwiu some designers select drivers mostly by listening
A trained ear can get a lot information just listening to selected and specific tracks It is what they do for PA installations
They listen
i see I think that it depends on what people value most When i drink or eat something i value the taste
i have a problem When something tastes really good I can't get enough of it
Usually it stops me from feeling nauseous and it always comes in the end
actually i have experiences of listening to horns And my feeling is that when the technology is applied correctly horn loaded drivers can provide a level of performance that no conventional driver can A sensation of cleaness and effortless power that amazed me
However i understant that there are challenges
yes Size cost and look To accomodate a VOT in a living room is not that easy When a room is small people tend to prefer small speakers
i also like a narrow dispersion I listen alone in the sweet spot
i have never listened to such systems at home Only at public shows and in shops
i see But this kind of drivers will allow me to use small amps with good sound I do not like big amps
at the time of the Sonic Impact T-Amp i read about a nice competition Many DIYers participated to the contest with high efficiency speakers
The idea was to understand what kind of performance can be obtained with an amp costing 30 USD ?
if a speaker can sound good also with this amp just think how it will sound driven from a great amp
A speaker designed and built to have low distortion at high levels will have almost zero distortion at lower levels Distortion increases with SPL
I could write pages of stuff about DBLTs but I'll just comment on TWO important points.
The victim is NEVER told what he is comparing. It could be 3 speakers or 3 mains cables.
This is a given. You use it to test & calibrate your DBLT panel.
But in view of various Golden Eared gurus here, I propose a new test that gets around the expense & difficulty of conducting DBLTs.
It only requires a screwdriver. Open up the amp and see if it has TO-3 devices. If so, it is rubbish. No need to listen. You'll have to check out cumbb's zillion posts to see what capacitors in the amp or speaker xover are EVIL. Again, no need to listen.
ginetto61, may I urge you to TRY and conduct some DBLTs of your own. It is VERY expensive & difficult to do properly but the attempt is VERY educational.
At least you will find out which of your wannabe Golden Pinnae friends are deaf. 😉
I'll put good money also that you'll find your girl friend, wife, mistress, mother outperform (ie have better hearing) than the friends who hear chalk & cheese differences between TO-3 and other transistors. 😊
At least you will find out which of your wannabe Golden Pinnae friends are deaf. 😉
I'll put good money also that you'll find your girl friend, wife, mistress, mother outperform (ie have better hearing) than the friends who hear chalk & cheese differences between TO-3 and other transistors. 😊
Thanks for posting the test, it's an interesting one. Having been a judge in some contests, I can say that no blind test is needed for speakers - they all sound so different that they will surprise you. As for sources and amps, those are best done blind, as was shown in this test. I am surprised at the low price amp, as I know it pretty well and it does not have good reputation in the world of pro audio. 😀
Thanks a lot for your valuable advice If i have to trust the test this is even more amazing i.e. a low quality and price pro amp performing on a par with a high end amp
I have one myself I would like to change all the electrolytics with something above suspicion
there is a problem with the input attenuators i understand The way they are wired i guess
That can be avoided using a preamp like i normally do and setting input attenuators to zero attenuation
The sound is at least decent It has a nice toroid
But amplification after reading this test is no more a problem For me it is a complete change of approach I was an avid reader of posts about amps
Now no more i love them
The majority of DBLTs we conducted was for speakers though we investigated loadsa other stuff too. The best performer in some 20 yrs was a little 5 ltr box which came up top in a dozen DBLTs; usually against MUCH larger & $$$ speakers. There was no way it could have performed as well in a sighted test against its $$$ & famous competition.
Even the best ears in the business are prejudiced.
I think I'm interpreting everyone's thoughts by asking for more information on this speaker phenomenon
the last 5 ltr box that enthralled me was full of very good wine
Thank you very much
I like to pit devices and speakers against itself: Just make a little change and listen. In the case of loudspeakers, there is a switch that toggles between the original and the modification - usually only the bass-midrange driver as a full range driver, solo without electrical crossover;-)
I see no reason why a very well-trimmed compact speaker can't outperform the much larger ones in almost all respects: contour, blackness, tempo, rhythm, clarity, cleanliness... 👍
I see no reason why a very well-trimmed compact speaker can't outperform the much larger ones in almost all respects: contour, blackness, tempo, rhythm, clarity, cleanliness... 👍