Hi folks,
I am planning a speaker project:
I've looked around for amplification and I seem to be hitting a bit of a snag.
There is TinySine and the Wondom / Sure Electronics / Dayton Audio triplets. 4x100W bridgeable output, onboard DSP through SigmaStudio which seems to be a perfectly capable program, boards can be daisy-chained. On paper this is just perfect, except for inadequate inputs (3.5mm jack, no digital ports), and the word is that they sound like a$$. THD=10%, SNR=80dB is boombox / karaoke spec and judging by the reviews on Parts Express that's what they're being used for. They're inexpensive but as some say you get what you pay for. TinySine is said to be the better of the two.
MiniDSP has a couple plate amps with ICEPower modules. Hypex also makes a few DSP plate amps (Hypex Fusion). That's getting higher in the price range.
Neurochrome and Ian Canada make modules that seem well regarded but no DSP there unless I'm mistaken.
Next are multi-channel and multi-room amps like VTV, Nord, OSD, etc. But they need a separate DSP / crossover unit like dbx DriveRack or such. Or, a stack of Fosi, Ayima, etc. monoblocks. Still need a dbx though, and I would prefer electronics to be built in the cabinets if possible.
Ideally there would be modules out there like TinySine but with good sound quality, at a reasonable price.
In other words... I'm hoping I missed something in my research.... Any feedback / suggestions are much appreciated 🙂
Thank you!
Well, wait - I kept looking at stuff while writing this post and I found this 3e audio module, no onboard DSP but a separate ADAU1701 board is available... Looks like I'd need 2 amps per channel, one in stereo mode and one in bridge mode. ASR reviewed this 3e audio integrated amp that looks based on same / similar board and it actually measured quite well! I definitely have to look into this more in depth. Could this be the answer to my question?
I am planning a speaker project:
- 3-way
- Active crossover
- DSP / room correction
- Good sound quality
- Reasonable cost
I've looked around for amplification and I seem to be hitting a bit of a snag.
There is TinySine and the Wondom / Sure Electronics / Dayton Audio triplets. 4x100W bridgeable output, onboard DSP through SigmaStudio which seems to be a perfectly capable program, boards can be daisy-chained. On paper this is just perfect, except for inadequate inputs (3.5mm jack, no digital ports), and the word is that they sound like a$$. THD=10%, SNR=80dB is boombox / karaoke spec and judging by the reviews on Parts Express that's what they're being used for. They're inexpensive but as some say you get what you pay for. TinySine is said to be the better of the two.
MiniDSP has a couple plate amps with ICEPower modules. Hypex also makes a few DSP plate amps (Hypex Fusion). That's getting higher in the price range.
Neurochrome and Ian Canada make modules that seem well regarded but no DSP there unless I'm mistaken.
Next are multi-channel and multi-room amps like VTV, Nord, OSD, etc. But they need a separate DSP / crossover unit like dbx DriveRack or such. Or, a stack of Fosi, Ayima, etc. monoblocks. Still need a dbx though, and I would prefer electronics to be built in the cabinets if possible.
Ideally there would be modules out there like TinySine but with good sound quality, at a reasonable price.
In other words... I'm hoping I missed something in my research.... Any feedback / suggestions are much appreciated 🙂
Thank you!
Well, wait - I kept looking at stuff while writing this post and I found this 3e audio module, no onboard DSP but a separate ADAU1701 board is available... Looks like I'd need 2 amps per channel, one in stereo mode and one in bridge mode. ASR reviewed this 3e audio integrated amp that looks based on same / similar board and it actually measured quite well! I definitely have to look into this more in depth. Could this be the answer to my question?
Whatever you do,
My experience with minidsp has been dismal. I have 2 pairs of active speakers, both of which originally had ice power plate amps. 3 of the 4 amps failed and were not repairable. I moved on to Hypex Fusion and have not had any issues since. Hypex is pricey but may be worth it for you. The dsp programming involves a learning curve but is straight forward if you are willing to put some time into it.
Of course ymmv.
Best
My experience with minidsp has been dismal. I have 2 pairs of active speakers, both of which originally had ice power plate amps. 3 of the 4 amps failed and were not repairable. I moved on to Hypex Fusion and have not had any issues since. Hypex is pricey but may be worth it for you. The dsp programming involves a learning curve but is straight forward if you are willing to put some time into it.
Of course ymmv.
Best
Pay attention to this option. Made specifically for active three-way speakers. Each channel holds 100W at 4 Ohms with nonlinear distortion less than 0.01% at 100W, and has a noise level below 106 dB(A). More detailed information is in the links.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/3-way-dsp-amp.415065/#post-7734899
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/board-3-way-dsp-amp.415079/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ac-with-dsp-adau1452-100w-per-channel.410804/
I use https://sound-au.com/project127.htm in mine. These are however DIY amps, but are easy to make.
I use two stereo amps per speaker as I have two bass units with a bit of EQ so need a little extra power. I use a 28-0-28 transformer that gives me +-40V for about 80W per amp.
I have a small living room so there is waaaay more power than I need, but I chose them because they are good enough amps and are really small - apart from the heatsink that takes the full width of my very slim cabinets.
My crossovers are analogue and Rod also sells boards for these.
Hope that helps.
I use two stereo amps per speaker as I have two bass units with a bit of EQ so need a little extra power. I use a 28-0-28 transformer that gives me +-40V for about 80W per amp.
I have a small living room so there is waaaay more power than I need, but I chose them because they are good enough amps and are really small - apart from the heatsink that takes the full width of my very slim cabinets.
My crossovers are analogue and Rod also sells boards for these.
Hope that helps.
Hypex fusion is quiet good, the dsp is the weak point altough. But it's good enough for many. I would keep the amp outside your speaker box. This is because plate amps die a lot faster than normal amps (the stress of the vibrations and air pressure on it) and they are often not fully sealed (leakage that may affect speaker tuning). But in a seperate box, they can be great if you can work wit that dsp.
But i would use a multiway amp, or a stack of amps and the real MiniDSP systems. Not the powered minidsp (that are Icepower modules), but with Hyepx or Purifi based amps. The sound quality will be better than with a plate amp because the latest generation MiniDSP (Flex series)Analog Devices SHARC ADSP21489 are much higher quality/low noise than the Analog Device ADAU1452 chip/Dac that Hypex uses and their dsp software is way more stable (altough the horror stories of the crashing Hypex dsp software are largely gone).
But i would use a multiway amp, or a stack of amps and the real MiniDSP systems. Not the powered minidsp (that are Icepower modules), but with Hyepx or Purifi based amps. The sound quality will be better than with a plate amp because the latest generation MiniDSP (Flex series)Analog Devices SHARC ADSP21489 are much higher quality/low noise than the Analog Device ADAU1452 chip/Dac that Hypex uses and their dsp software is way more stable (altough the horror stories of the crashing Hypex dsp software are largely gone).
Lots of good info here, thanks!
Still more to learn, but thanks to your feedback I'm crossing miniDSP plate amps off my list, and Hypex too because their product is priced too high if you're not an OEM.
@uriy-ch your projects look very interesting. Still absorbing the content of the threads you linked. I'm sure I'm going to have questions, do you want me to post them here or to one of your other threads?
Still more to learn, but thanks to your feedback I'm crossing miniDSP plate amps off my list, and Hypex too because their product is priced too high if you're not an OEM.
@uriy-ch your projects look very interesting. Still absorbing the content of the threads you linked. I'm sure I'm going to have questions, do you want me to post them here or to one of your other threads?
Decide for yourself what is more convenient for you, I am ready to answer questions here and there.
By the way, I named the price for DSP amplifiers on a plate, and in this thread I posted a dxf file for laser cutting for those who can cut plates at home and thus save money by buying only the DSP amplifier itself.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...for-3-way-active-speaker.421239/#post-7872876
Amazing work @uriy-ch
Several of us @hifijim @ernperkins @cowanaudio have been talking about a good solution for a 3 way DSP amp, meanwhile, you’ve been designing it!
@waxx of course one can have outboard crossovers and separate amps for 110+ dB SNR and 0.0001% distortion, but really, only the engineers want that.
Your solution looks very good, and enough for a 3 way, even with a big ported 8-10” woofer! Please link me to your completed plate amps on eBay- I will support your venture!
Several of us @hifijim @ernperkins @cowanaudio have been talking about a good solution for a 3 way DSP amp, meanwhile, you’ve been designing it!
@waxx of course one can have outboard crossovers and separate amps for 110+ dB SNR and 0.0001% distortion, but really, only the engineers want that.
Your solution looks very good, and enough for a 3 way, even with a big ported 8-10” woofer! Please link me to your completed plate amps on eBay- I will support your venture!
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I can't speak to miniDSP's amps, but I've had a 4x10hd for several years and it has operated flawlessly. I use an external 8 channel class D amp with it (Savant 8125 - Lexicon and Crown offer the same amp under different brands). I think that's the cleanest and most reliable solution.
Similarly, my Flex8 is a permanent fixture in my main system, whether it's 2 channel or 4+. The utility is immense.
I have been using Minidsp 2x4 for a few years now and have 4 Sonance Sonamp amplifiers. Sa260 and SA275SE. They make plenty of power and are all over Ebay for cheap. I have had 2 of them for more than 5 years and they just work. No fuss, no muss.
I've adopted the 2x150W and 2x300W class-D amps modules offered by @Erica.C here. $50 for each 2x150W module = maybe $300 for a DIY assembled 6-ch amp. They sound good, tough to beat. This if you're using a discrete DSP crossover like Flex 8.
An 8-ch amp I assembled with these modules.
An 8-ch amp I assembled with these modules.
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I don't use those, i use NC122MP or NC252MP based amps, thosea are more more like 98dB SINAD amp, those cost today a lot less and are good enough to be absolute clean. Icepower don't get there yet, and sound harsh for me.. Finished builds of those are sold by Audiophonics (France) and Buckeye (US), both are tested and found good by several.
Class AB amps are an other thing, they can get away with a way less clean singal as their distortion is harmonic. Tube amps are even more distorted but still get away with it because the same reason, their distortion is harmonic. Class D distortion is not, and therefor the need for a cleaner amp is real for me.
But the main reason why I would not use Hypex plate amps is the dsp, the amps are good enough (they are almot the same as those modules technically). If you got good class AB amps that are cheap enough for you, you could also just use a MiniDSP wtih those without those issues that icepower and other not so low distortion-class D amps have. Hypex is not the only one who makes those low distortion amp modules, but probally the cheapest.
Hello All,
I would like to join in with a related question.
Usually these Bi and Tri amp systems use line level crossovers. Normally the tweeter will have an inline capacitor to guard against amplifier DC.
Do people like or opposed to other inline things like zobels or inductors to equalize the output or even to add a little current adjustment to reduce distortion.
Thanks DT
Example: the JBL M2 has a capacitor and resistor network inline with the HF Compression Driver.
I would like to join in with a related question.
Usually these Bi and Tri amp systems use line level crossovers. Normally the tweeter will have an inline capacitor to guard against amplifier DC.
Do people like or opposed to other inline things like zobels or inductors to equalize the output or even to add a little current adjustment to reduce distortion.
Thanks DT
Example: the JBL M2 has a capacitor and resistor network inline with the HF Compression Driver.
Those passive components are mainly there to protect the tweeter from unfiltered signal (when the dsp is faulty or not configured right). EQ is better done with dsp, as you can do it much more precise than with a passive network, and with way less distortion to the signal (with a good dsp).
But you can combine dsp and passive elements in the filter, that is done a lot actually. Just do the right thing with the right part.
But you can combine dsp and passive elements in the filter, that is done a lot actually. Just do the right thing with the right part.
This is all at the discretion of the speaker system designer. Sometimes it is justified from a technical point of view, sometimes it is justified from a subjective point of view. If the speaker system designer has a goal to have a reactive component between the speaker and the amplifier, and at the same time have an even phase at the speaker output, then using DSP to align the phase of the reactive component is not a problem.
MiniDSP 4x10 here, no complaints after many years other than having to reboot it occasionally. For amps I have 4 channels of the Neurochrome Modulus 86, a 2 channel Hypex Ncore amp, and a Crown XLS amp for the subwoofer channels. I use a Raspberry Pi 4 running Moode as a streamer into the MiniDSP.
Should the MiniDSP die, I would likely explore running CamillaDSP on the Raspberry Pi for processing, and purchase a separate 8-channel DAC. I'd have to work out how to get an analog signal into the chain for the few times I play LP's. The Flex 8 would be a good alternative.
Should the MiniDSP die, I would likely explore running CamillaDSP on the Raspberry Pi for processing, and purchase a separate 8-channel DAC. I'd have to work out how to get an analog signal into the chain for the few times I play LP's. The Flex 8 would be a good alternative.