To all,
Just wanted to insist on the burn in process. I have been running the rs225-8 in cabinet without filter or fullrange assistance, because of my curiosity, and i was very underwhelmed by the performace, which looked OK running in free air. Initially i thought something was very wrong with the build or driver, or that maybe i overestimated thhis project. Bass lacked realism and was VERY slow and unextended. After playing some bassier-heavy music constantly for tens of hours at say, 1 watt, things changed drastically. the whole spectrum became less strained and mor «agile». It is not a bass monster, not yet anyway, but it it way cleaner...much more in accordance with the name «high fidelity». So i 'm going to run it in a little more before adding the final parts. Worth what it's worth with uncomplted system, but still...
So i would suggest to be patient if the speaker is unsatisfying at first (this is true also for tc9fd). That is not to say performance will be to your taste though....but as is, for me it, i don't see bass as a drawback really, because the rest of the sound makes up for it. Also, i should add that when compared directly with my senn Hd650, the rs225 actually puts out a tad bit more bass and deeper, one. And the hd650 is considered a reference by many audiophiles, and with a certain reason : the rest of the spectrum is absolutely beautiful and the bass is really tight, not unlike OB systems!
Just wanted to insist on the burn in process. I have been running the rs225-8 in cabinet without filter or fullrange assistance, because of my curiosity, and i was very underwhelmed by the performace, which looked OK running in free air. Initially i thought something was very wrong with the build or driver, or that maybe i overestimated thhis project. Bass lacked realism and was VERY slow and unextended. After playing some bassier-heavy music constantly for tens of hours at say, 1 watt, things changed drastically. the whole spectrum became less strained and mor «agile». It is not a bass monster, not yet anyway, but it it way cleaner...much more in accordance with the name «high fidelity». So i 'm going to run it in a little more before adding the final parts. Worth what it's worth with uncomplted system, but still...
So i would suggest to be patient if the speaker is unsatisfying at first (this is true also for tc9fd). That is not to say performance will be to your taste though....but as is, for me it, i don't see bass as a drawback really, because the rest of the sound makes up for it. Also, i should add that when compared directly with my senn Hd650, the rs225 actually puts out a tad bit more bass and deeper, one. And the hd650 is considered a reference by many audiophiles, and with a certain reason : the rest of the spectrum is absolutely beautiful and the bass is really tight, not unlike OB systems!
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It is a practical adaptation to achieve a theoretical requirement of a time and phase aligned speaker with a first order crossover. Take for example the step response function shown in post 1 for a transient perfect speaker:
With the full range on top, the sharp leading edge representing the full range driver impulse would be sort of delayed and on the upper part of the right triangle rather than at the leading edge. Note that this effect is less important the farther you are away from the speaker. Also, since this is not a point source speaker, it’s true for only a certain position from the speaker. So it’s only an approximate aid to improve time alignment. The only way to get true time alignment at all positions is a point source speaker with digital time delay or a very long delay all-pass filter.
With the full range on top, the sharp leading edge representing the full range driver impulse would be sort of delayed and on the upper part of the right triangle rather than at the leading edge. Note that this effect is less important the farther you are away from the speaker. Also, since this is not a point source speaker, it’s true for only a certain position from the speaker. So it’s only an approximate aid to improve time alignment. The only way to get true time alignment at all positions is a point source speaker with digital time delay or a very long delay all-pass filter.
Well then here is some visual realistic model from VituixCAD to help what objective data you did listen to provided position was exactly on axis
then add Le is high for a woofer as RS225 which mean non linear timing as frq goes up and can maybe be some of the cause you lacked realism or call it slow together its used over so wide a band and also its not a smooth curve.Technical below use the four axis one can download from Dayton audio, then low end was EQed to cover a sealed 52Hz BW2 high pass filter seen as orange curve, and then estimated bafflestep and difraction was added to orange curve so red is final sum without any room modes, text at right covers colour of curves.
Same as above normalized.
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I'm sorry Byrtt, I am having a hard time following what you are trying to show with the graphs? Are you saying that listening to the RS225 by iteself lacks realism because of the rising response which causes timing artifacts? Nice graphs btw. Looks like you are using VituixCAD for all your frequency response plotting needs lately...
If bass is improving with break in, it might be the suspension loosening up. I recall there was a break in period when I first played the RS225-8 in the XPS foam boxes. I attributed it to the adhesive curing and making the cabinet more rigid. But maybe it was just suspension loosening up the whole time.
I'll try explain your thoghts there or where i disagree and see if we maybe can agree down the road how to get closer to reference sound some way
First take a look at on axis response in my previos post over its wide band, well i don't know why some has touted that response to be any smooth or good as a reproducer over a wide band pass so why should it ever sound realistic used in that wide mode, now eat all the curves in all the three graphs and one will notice it doesn't matter if one sit near field or at listening position because we have huge distortions relative to optimal that set in because of the wide band used for a relative huge diameter ALU cone transducer, we should though remember that simulation lack any roommodes from pidesd's home but the rest is a realistic estimation for his simple setup there and guess if he goes near field within 1 meter or so on axis we can ignore the room model is missing. Regarding time artifacts there is one huge happening at about 3kHz area where ampitude drops out causing the minimum phase to take a sharp hit >45º and that one will ruin or manipulate natural harmonics time lineup belonging to deeper basetones (read ruin/manipulate a realistic or natural reproduced sound). Then comes the huge Le value factor that cause time artifact when used wide band, know its absolutely normal for woofers to have huge Le value and nothing wrong with that but also most woofers are engineer or expected to have a pass band only in lows so that relative high Le value don't mean so much. The time artifacts of high Le value are not talked about or published much anywhere and not shure myself can explain/understand subject as deep as a pro would in remember myself is nothing but a interested hobby diy'er, but so far for me it looks be a time artifact because we use a voltage source to feed a current load, had the phase timing for that current load been flat we have had real relative higher sound resolution or realism or naturals or whatever we call that, but that current phase angle is not flat and the worse Le the worse that current phase angle is, could talk more about Le subject but so far to get at a end : ) can't we just say if high Le was really any good why do mids and tweeters then adopt those high Le numbers.
Now in below if we try same model exercise but this time EQ RS225 flat as a pancake covering a BW2 bandpass from 52Hz to 10kHz curves reveal if we low cut at say 1kHz 8th order LR its bandpass will look almost a perfect woofer reference class as seen into the smaller overlaid graphs in lower left corner, so Dayton probably did a exelent smooth design when used in low end of audio band.
If you guys are interested in subjective sonics from near field on axis position the EQed 52Hz to 10kHz band pass i could share a IR convolution file or one could pre convolute a audio track and share for listening test, also the Le factor can be time convoluted and included but that one takes a heck of a time and need a precise impedance curve taken from enclosure in situation for RS225.
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I agree the RS225-8 isn’t going to sound pretty raw. It’s got serious breakup modes as most woofers have. Put it through the recommend XO and notice the response. This is on axis (red curve), it blends with the full range (green curve) to produce the blended blue curve.
All this has +/-2.5deg of phase variation from 200Hz to 15kHz. This is what allows it to sound realistic with great time accuracy and the imaging is very clear.
All this has +/-2.5deg of phase variation from 200Hz to 15kHz. This is what allows it to sound realistic with great time accuracy and the imaging is very clear.
Hi xrk,
no, but I have now built a square dagger with triangles with a 6 inch basis, as you described, and I thought, perhaps it is possible to make the distance between the two drivers shorter, by placing it closer to one edge of the dagger - or by making a flatter/ rectangular dagger. But it is good to hear, that placing it off-center does not harm the function - makes it even better due to less resonances. Thank you!
no, but I have now built a square dagger with triangles with a 6 inch basis, as you described, and I thought, perhaps it is possible to make the distance between the two drivers shorter, by placing it closer to one edge of the dagger - or by making a flatter/ rectangular dagger. But it is good to hear, that placing it off-center does not harm the function - makes it even better due to less resonances. Thank you!
over the last days i've been listening to the tc9fd seperately in my small reflex box and found them a little difficult to listen to in the long term with a high pass filter order. Not sure what it is... i'll have to look into it...maybe not smooth enough for my taste or too bright....
Meanwhile i am looking for other «cheap» small fullranges that may be interesting: Aside from sb65 and fr58ex , what about something like the Aura NS3-193-8A (or smaller 2 inch version) or SB36WBAC21-4 (low sensitivity) or even tc5fd...maybe they would be smoother or perform where tc9fd does not?
i think i may like a moore tweeter like presentation after all, my axiom m3v2 speakers don't have nowhere near the resolution of rs225 or tc9fd, but they are less «agressive on top a little, which i find easier on the ears on the long term
Meanwhile i am looking for other «cheap» small fullranges that may be interesting: Aside from sb65 and fr58ex , what about something like the Aura NS3-193-8A (or smaller 2 inch version) or SB36WBAC21-4 (low sensitivity) or even tc5fd...maybe they would be smoother or perform where tc9fd does not?
i think i may like a moore tweeter like presentation after all, my axiom m3v2 speakers don't have nowhere near the resolution of rs225 or tc9fd, but they are less «agressive on top a little, which i find easier on the ears on the long term
Byrtt,
i will have to digest your interesting post....for now bass has gone better again as well as the rest of the spectrum...it sounds much higher fidelity throughout. Note that i am listening below one watt and breakup is probably less of a problem. My iphone even measures actually pretty flat up to 10 KHZ at those levels (worth what it s worth but still) and this corresponds pretty much with what i'm hearing. What i was going through is called «breaking in». after that i would have too look at the phase behavior...but for now the woofer is not a concern....in any case, i still have to hear the speaker as intended fully built and run it with an amp woith some voltage gain before full appreciation.
i will have to digest your interesting post....for now bass has gone better again as well as the rest of the spectrum...it sounds much higher fidelity throughout. Note that i am listening below one watt and breakup is probably less of a problem. My iphone even measures actually pretty flat up to 10 KHZ at those levels (worth what it s worth but still) and this corresponds pretty much with what i'm hearing. What i was going through is called «breaking in». after that i would have too look at the phase behavior...but for now the woofer is not a concern....in any case, i still have to hear the speaker as intended fully built and run it with an amp woith some voltage gain before full appreciation.
maybe that or a bit of shelving as per schematic on the original crossover for the complete speaker, or my eras are sensible, or something else... i will have to work a bit more...but one thing is sure, with a high pass, the highest frequencies are much crisper and noticeable..cybals hi-hat, etc...maybe it helps «creates» the «brightness» i hear. i also have to compare with other speakers/headphone for so called «smoothness»(absence of sudden peaks or dips)....difficult to say at what point i can hear them in the actual music...
The Faitals are even more pronounced on the highs!
If he didn't like the TC9, the Faitals are going to be hard to listen too.
As X mentioned, all you need to balance the whole thing is a BSC filter.
Most of the time, you can start with a 1mH and a resistor, the amount needed to lower the highs to a level you find you can live with.
Knowing the TC9 a bit, I'd start with a 5 Ohms resistor, and adjust to taste.
If he didn't like the TC9, the Faitals are going to be hard to listen too.
As X mentioned, all you need to balance the whole thing is a BSC filter.
Most of the time, you can start with a 1mH and a resistor, the amount needed to lower the highs to a level you find you can live with.
Knowing the TC9 a bit, I'd start with a 5 Ohms resistor, and adjust to taste.
XRK,
Wouldn't a tweeter be just a TAD bit smoother say above 8k...? Maybe i am sensible to that region a little, and larger drivers tend to break up sooner as far as i know.
i remember a few pages ago, you suggested the fr58ex or sb65, which may potentially be smoother «up there» because of size and metal dome, as an alternative, i might look into that next if ever i am not satisfied with TC9FD or wnat to taste something else. But mind you, i am listening to the Peerless right now just bare in the 6 liter reflex box tuned at around 80 hz and it is not fatiguing or annoying as is, so i'm not done with it yet (I also noticed changes as it breaks in...it's just when i highpass it that it becomes a bit fatiguing...but like i said, more adjustment/testing remains)
Wouldn't a tweeter be just a TAD bit smoother say above 8k...? Maybe i am sensible to that region a little, and larger drivers tend to break up sooner as far as i know.
i remember a few pages ago, you suggested the fr58ex or sb65, which may potentially be smoother «up there» because of size and metal dome, as an alternative, i might look into that next if ever i am not satisfied with TC9FD or wnat to taste something else. But mind you, i am listening to the Peerless right now just bare in the 6 liter reflex box tuned at around 80 hz and it is not fatiguing or annoying as is, so i'm not done with it yet
(I also noticed changes as it breaks in...it's just when i highpass it that it becomes a bit fatiguing...but like i said, more adjustment/testing remains)
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Just found a comparison chart for small fullranges around 2-3 inches, if someone is interested.
i would personally like try peerless TA6C...cheap and seems among the «smoothest» of the bunch,according to the charts. Just for comparison to my own larger , softer , paper cone unit.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
i would personally like try peerless TA6C...cheap and seems among the «smoothest» of the bunch,according to the charts. Just for comparison to my own larger , softer , paper cone unit.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
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