Hi,
Have a 12" (12PR320). what horn/WG size/type would you choose for such woofer size, please ?
Where would you cross a 12" beaming with a 90° horn ?
I saw new HumbleHomeMadeHifi Mezzo Calapamos now published with a short 90° horn and imho a too much high cut off for that driver... or at least way over its pistonic operation range. https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Mezzo-Calpamos.html
I imagine it should be more confortable below 800 hz. Are there horns type that are not 20" wide for such a job, please ? Or at least a horn that would loose itsconstant directivity below but can still match without loadind and/or constant directivity a 12" woofer pattern that low for a seamlessy cut off at ears ?
A good enough 2 ways with a 1.4" compression for home listening level at 3 meters... ?
I lurked on the St260 from the awsome work of Mabatt but seems made for higher cut-off and if I go a 3 way then I would choose more a cone midrange. a bi-radial TAD horn style from the numerous european artisans , But it will push the width in an area that is hard for a living room : a 20" + horn on 37 cm wide column... not sexy !
Any thoughs please , I am not tempted by 60° degree horns as I like a little more "life" from a room in the highs. So i assume a 90° to 110° horn is what (I believe to) need !
Thank you for your inputs.
Have a 12" (12PR320). what horn/WG size/type would you choose for such woofer size, please ?
Where would you cross a 12" beaming with a 90° horn ?
I saw new HumbleHomeMadeHifi Mezzo Calapamos now published with a short 90° horn and imho a too much high cut off for that driver... or at least way over its pistonic operation range. https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Mezzo-Calpamos.html
I imagine it should be more confortable below 800 hz. Are there horns type that are not 20" wide for such a job, please ? Or at least a horn that would loose itsconstant directivity below but can still match without loadind and/or constant directivity a 12" woofer pattern that low for a seamlessy cut off at ears ?
A good enough 2 ways with a 1.4" compression for home listening level at 3 meters... ?
I lurked on the St260 from the awsome work of Mabatt but seems made for higher cut-off and if I go a 3 way then I would choose more a cone midrange. a bi-radial TAD horn style from the numerous european artisans , But it will push the width in an area that is hard for a living room : a 20" + horn on 37 cm wide column... not sexy !
Any thoughs please , I am not tempted by 60° degree horns as I like a little more "life" from a room in the highs. So i assume a 90° to 110° horn is what (I believe to) need !
Thank you for your inputs.
..around 1.2-1.3 kHz. This is regarding it's off-axis behavior.
If you push substantially lower than this you might as well run the horn as low as it can go (..as it will typically set the off-axis behavior).
Note: designs with larger horns tend to sound (subjectively) better OFF of the loudspeakers baffle (as-in raised a few inches up with air-space between the horn and the top of the loudspeaker and aimed for whatever vertical listening axis is needed for the "integration window" relative to the listener).
If you push substantially lower than this you might as well run the horn as low as it can go (..as it will typically set the off-axis behavior).
Note: designs with larger horns tend to sound (subjectively) better OFF of the loudspeakers baffle (as-in raised a few inches up with air-space between the horn and the top of the loudspeaker and aimed for whatever vertical listening axis is needed for the "integration window" relative to the listener).
Rough rule of thumb: A (cone) driver beams at 90deg when wavelength = driver diameter.
For a 12" that is around 1200Hz if I remember correctly.
For a 12" that is around 1200Hz if I remember correctly.
A 1.4" CD + a woofer is the formula for Peavey successful SP2 SP1 SP5 PA speakers. The Peavey RX22 CD rolls off at 15 khz, which in my case is above the tinitis barrier. The crossover defines the wattage limit on pink noise. the RX22 is a 70 w CD. 1985? SP2 with 15" woofer was rated 175 W AES with 800 hz crossover. 1995? SP2-XT with 15" was rated 300 W AES with 1200 hz crossover. This package had a specified -3db beam with of 45 deg. 2004 SP2 with same 15" woofer was rated 500 w AES with 2000 hz crossover. They abandoned the 3 db specification for 2004 but managed a -6 db width of 90 degrees by making the case narrower at the back.
The 12" woofer version for 2004 was the SP5, which I found unconvincing on piano bass notes. This was in the middle of an open demo room. Backing the unit into a hard wall could get 3 db more bass. I measured my SP2(2004) on axis at 6' only 10 db down at 25 hz backed into a 1' thick plaster wall. So this explains why I have felt no need of a subwoofer. My house eliminates the BSC problem.
So Peavey beat this rule in 2004 by modifying the case from a standard parallelapiped to a trapezoid. It also has a big sheet of foam rubber in folds diagonally I can see through the port - engineers triumph over physics. I can assert that I can walk all around the room and the sound doesn't change much in frequency distribution.
The 12" woofer version for 2004 was the SP5, which I found unconvincing on piano bass notes. This was in the middle of an open demo room. Backing the unit into a hard wall could get 3 db more bass. I measured my SP2(2004) on axis at 6' only 10 db down at 25 hz backed into a 1' thick plaster wall. So this explains why I have felt no need of a subwoofer. My house eliminates the BSC problem.
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How low and loud do you plan to use the 12PR320?
The 12PR320 dispersion is wider than 90 degree (-6dB 45 degree off axis) below 1.6kHz, <1kHz is less than -3dB.
A horn would not have to be 20" wide to match it's dispersion, 12" would be plenty.
A 90x90 degree horn using a 1.75" to 2" diaphragm compression driver should keep up to your 12" if crossed at 12dB per octave above 800Hz. A 3" diaphragm could reach down into the 600 Hz range with a 12" horn.
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Thanks.
What about the sound of a 12" cone above its pistonic range (500/600 hz?) till that 90° cut-off at 1200/1300 hz ?
I presume the off axis spread starts from the end of the pistonic behavior of the cone size till the 90° of the 1200/1300 hz here for a 12", where the 90° horn takes the relay, so with a smooth (off axis) matched behavior at XO, then the directivity index of the horn.
How will be the sound of that 600 to 1200 hz octave with a 12", please ? will not to be too much life like, at least thick due to the size of the cone (above the pistonic range) ? What your listening experience there ? Did you experienced a mismatch in sound around the horn and 12" transition ?
Forgett to say that I plan passive XO.
@weltersys : the datasheet curve is in their narrow opening horn (60° or 70° IIRC).
Shortly about your question: 37 cm width baffle with 90 to 91 dB flat in real life from 100 hz to the end of the mid (according room modes I do not know):
Long version : Reading Troels Gravsen, Tony Gee (H.H.M.H. Mezzo Calapamos above link), and OSMC Mbrennwa member, the driver when baffled with baffle step compensation and according the X-over filter slope will be around 90 to 92 dB/2.83V (4 Pi) from 100 hz to upper ranges if you want a circa flat on axis (I think they all worked with something around 3 dB compensation according the XO when crossed with a cone around 300 to 500 hz and more (5 to 6 dB because the diffractions help of near walls/furnitures?) in the Tony Gee horn design if I understood well the graph they published. (I profit here : Special thanks to Matthias and Paul for all the datas of the OSMC thread, you also made me purchase these 12" 🙂.)
If a compression and horn combo choice that is for a 2 ways in my thoughs, so I assume no more than 1.5" compression diag ?
Edit : if a XO around 800 Hz, which 1.75" in a horn could hit 15 K hz (I am in the 50-ish), please ? Not so current format in Europe...
What about the sound of a 12" cone above its pistonic range (500/600 hz?) till that 90° cut-off at 1200/1300 hz ?
I presume the off axis spread starts from the end of the pistonic behavior of the cone size till the 90° of the 1200/1300 hz here for a 12", where the 90° horn takes the relay, so with a smooth (off axis) matched behavior at XO, then the directivity index of the horn.
How will be the sound of that 600 to 1200 hz octave with a 12", please ? will not to be too much life like, at least thick due to the size of the cone (above the pistonic range) ? What your listening experience there ? Did you experienced a mismatch in sound around the horn and 12" transition ?
Forgett to say that I plan passive XO.
@weltersys : the datasheet curve is in their narrow opening horn (60° or 70° IIRC).
Shortly about your question: 37 cm width baffle with 90 to 91 dB flat in real life from 100 hz to the end of the mid (according room modes I do not know):
Long version : Reading Troels Gravsen, Tony Gee (H.H.M.H. Mezzo Calapamos above link), and OSMC Mbrennwa member, the driver when baffled with baffle step compensation and according the X-over filter slope will be around 90 to 92 dB/2.83V (4 Pi) from 100 hz to upper ranges if you want a circa flat on axis (I think they all worked with something around 3 dB compensation according the XO when crossed with a cone around 300 to 500 hz and more (5 to 6 dB because the diffractions help of near walls/furnitures?) in the Tony Gee horn design if I understood well the graph they published. (I profit here : Special thanks to Matthias and Paul for all the datas of the OSMC thread, you also made me purchase these 12" 🙂.)
If a compression and horn combo choice that is for a 2 ways in my thoughs, so I assume no more than 1.5" compression diag ?
Edit : if a XO around 800 Hz, which 1.75" in a horn could hit 15 K hz (I am in the 50-ish), please ? Not so current format in Europe...
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The classic crossover point for horn to 15” woofer is 700Hz. I always end up about there, it just works. But that does mean a big horn and 1.4” or 2” driver and not rock and roll PA levels. Cinema systems were usually crossed there. You want something smaller.
IME a 12” woofer and 1” horn are just at the limit of sounding right on vocals. A 10” woofer and 1” horn are easier to mate. It’s a trade-off and of vocal clarity vs bass authority.
You will likely end up around 1100-1300 Hz as has been mentioned in the thread. Be sure to do what sounds best, not what you or anyone else “think”might be right. That was a hard lesson learned for me.
IME a 12” woofer and 1” horn are just at the limit of sounding right on vocals. A 10” woofer and 1” horn are easier to mate. It’s a trade-off and of vocal clarity vs bass authority.
You will likely end up around 1100-1300 Hz as has been mentioned in the thread. Be sure to do what sounds best, not what you or anyone else “think”might be right. That was a hard lesson learned for me.
1,130 Hz is exactly 12". A 1.2 KHz crossover point with a 90 degree horn would be a good starting point, if you don't mind the steep cutoff of the horn/driver in the passband. I've noticed a severe lack of appealing horns on the market. The SEOS waveguides from DIY Sound Group were probably nice, but those seem to be long gone, as does the QSC 90x60 waveguide. The Econowave is still available, if you want to go that route. On the other hand, this 10" horn from SB Audience probably isn't too bad, and has a cutoff below 700 Hz: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/audience-horns/sb-audience-horn-h250-250mm-x-250mm/
Depends on the cone, but I've heard many 12" that sound better than compression drivers up to 1200Hz.
I have no personal listening experience with the 12PR320.
I don't follow you, the data sheet in post #5 is of the 12PR320 12" cone.
1.75" to 2" diaphragm compression drivers generally have a 1" throat exit, many drivers of this size can cover 800-15kHz.
A 3" diaphragm compression driver generally has a 1.4" or 1.5" throat exit, which would require a throat reduction to around 1" in width to allow wide dispersion above 10kHz.
Annular diaphragms may have less diaphragm area (Sd) than dome diaphragms for a given voice coil size, the above statements refer to typical dome diaphragms.
I am very not sure, hence the "naives" questions. Yes, I want to avoid odds result, while if I do not know, how to discern what is rigth ?. Experience matters, thanks 🙂. Only one thingg I can be sure is not beleiving myself here though !
Rule of thumb with a cone is not go higher than - 3 dB at 90° frequency point to mate with a 90 ° horn ?
It is choosing 90 degrees as the pattern width at the crossover point that forces it to be up around 1 to 1.2K with a 12" driver as that is roughly where the driver is beaming to create that pattern width. If you want to cross at 800Hz the 12" driver will not have a pattern of 90 degrees so if you want a smooth directivity match neither should the horn be 90 degrees.
You can get a smooth directivity match at a lower frequency by running a waveguide lower than normal where it's pattern control is not so good. It is then a matter of picking a waveguide that has the right amount of lost pattern to produce a smooth match, and a driver on the waveguide that does not need support from the waveguide to play happily at the lower frequency, which as Art says is usually one with a bigger diaphragm.
Horns with defined cut off frequencies are not suitable for this sort of blending as there is a point where they drop off a cliff. Something more OS or conical will lose pattern control more gracefully and allow a better blend lower down.
You can get a smooth directivity match at a lower frequency by running a waveguide lower than normal where it's pattern control is not so good. It is then a matter of picking a waveguide that has the right amount of lost pattern to produce a smooth match, and a driver on the waveguide that does not need support from the waveguide to play happily at the lower frequency, which as Art says is usually one with a bigger diaphragm.
Horns with defined cut off frequencies are not suitable for this sort of blending as there is a point where they drop off a cliff. Something more OS or conical will lose pattern control more gracefully and allow a better blend lower down.
@weltersys : yes I was thinking about CD and horns when I wrote, brain shorted. Of course it is on IEC baffle for the 12 PR320.
@BHTX, thanks for the references.
Seems a 12" is maybe not the optimal choice for a 2 way horn, better to take the classic driver 3 ways for better chance ? 12 + 5" + 1" dome or 6" to 6" WG/dome ?
There is that https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Nova-Andromeda.html for inspiration while the Faital 6" midrange doesn't appeal me from the AudioXpress test cause the massive THD around 1 K hz for a mid : https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-faital-pro-6rs140-midwoofer-midrange
a true 91.5/2.8 V around 300/500 hz seems ok just above the baffle step. Tony Gee chose the 16 ohms cause it has 92 dB datasheet instead 93 dB datasheetcfor the 8 ohms but Vance Dickason measured 91.5 dB/2.8V. I surmise Tony Gee measured them inside maybe.
So if a cone design choice, I had pain to find an attractive PA 5" to 6" with a true 91,5 dB (whatever 4 or 8 ohms for classic hifis drivers).
Very few confortable candidate for an easy passive for a noob as I and "true" > 91.5 dB/2.8V :
Audax 6PRM0 (around 94 dB in true life) (thanks Dibirama measurements)
The new SB Audience mid, but short for a 300 to 500 hz cut off maybe with its 200 Hz Fs.
One I am tempted : Audiotechnology Flexunits 6I52 : true 91 dB (Dibirama measurements again, but huge obstructive magnet and expensive (330 euros/units).
There is a 8" Revelator mid from ScanSpeak but a low 4 ohms and a 5" Discovery mid (with highish 4 ohms)... but we go in the low territorry since crossed, presumally below 3 ohms...
There are many good PA, but always a little too large imho : 8 beta from Emminence, or from B&C... Monacors have often too much THD for what i want or if good THD too low sensivity. PHL Audio or Audax aerogel ? First not easy spl curve for noobs, the only mif from Audax I'd like to see is NLA : HM100Z0 (no thanks for the PZ0 only paper cone). There is at least the 18 THSounds 6" in 8 or 16 ohms... People find it a little dry and surdamped (as the Audax 6PRM0 is according some)... Not easy, that's why I started the thread about a possible horn instead (but I am a passive parts guy and maybe too much innocent here)
@BHTX, thanks for the references.
Seems a 12" is maybe not the optimal choice for a 2 way horn, better to take the classic driver 3 ways for better chance ? 12 + 5" + 1" dome or 6" to 6" WG/dome ?
There is that https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Nova-Andromeda.html for inspiration while the Faital 6" midrange doesn't appeal me from the AudioXpress test cause the massive THD around 1 K hz for a mid : https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-faital-pro-6rs140-midwoofer-midrange
a true 91.5/2.8 V around 300/500 hz seems ok just above the baffle step. Tony Gee chose the 16 ohms cause it has 92 dB datasheet instead 93 dB datasheetcfor the 8 ohms but Vance Dickason measured 91.5 dB/2.8V. I surmise Tony Gee measured them inside maybe.
So if a cone design choice, I had pain to find an attractive PA 5" to 6" with a true 91,5 dB (whatever 4 or 8 ohms for classic hifis drivers).
Very few confortable candidate for an easy passive for a noob as I and "true" > 91.5 dB/2.8V :
Audax 6PRM0 (around 94 dB in true life) (thanks Dibirama measurements)
The new SB Audience mid, but short for a 300 to 500 hz cut off maybe with its 200 Hz Fs.
One I am tempted : Audiotechnology Flexunits 6I52 : true 91 dB (Dibirama measurements again, but huge obstructive magnet and expensive (330 euros/units).
There is a 8" Revelator mid from ScanSpeak but a low 4 ohms and a 5" Discovery mid (with highish 4 ohms)... but we go in the low territorry since crossed, presumally below 3 ohms...
There are many good PA, but always a little too large imho : 8 beta from Emminence, or from B&C... Monacors have often too much THD for what i want or if good THD too low sensivity. PHL Audio or Audax aerogel ? First not easy spl curve for noobs, the only mif from Audax I'd like to see is NLA : HM100Z0 (no thanks for the PZ0 only paper cone). There is at least the 18 THSounds 6" in 8 or 16 ohms... People find it a little dry and surdamped (as the Audax 6PRM0 is according some)... Not easy, that's why I started the thread about a possible horn instead (but I am a passive parts guy and maybe too much innocent here)
thanks Fluid, what ref do you have in mind here exactly ? Mabatt ST260 at these 1200 hZ-ish cut off or will it blend also smoothly in the 800 hz ( below its natural cut off with a give up of constant directivity there) ?
Better to give up the horn idea to avoid disapointment ?
Better to give up the horn idea to avoid disapointment ?
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The ST260 will lose directivity gracefully and with a strong 1" driver like the BMS 4550 800Hz could well work OK.
I wouldn't say that, what is your aim, high directivity or high efficiency or both?
If you want the directivity at higher frequencies a waveguide or horn is the right choice, if the high directivity isn't a major concern there are more choices to keep the efficiency up. I'm currently evaluating the idea of a Bliesma mid Dome and tweeter to go with the 12PR320. BMS 5" driver also looks like a good candidate.
Main goal is something with more livlier than the two 6.5 bass driver Xo-ed around 100 hz. the 12PR320 in something between the OSMC 77L load and the 107 L from T Gee should do what I'm looking for. I calculated a 104 L box, should go around 98-100 L after some bracing + the driver (do not know if ports volume should be substracted though ? The 102 L of the Monkey Tree evolution thread is the targett). drivers above will be in separated box to enable evolution if any. Then if the upper range could be also ok, it will be the icing on the cake. Was thinking B plan à la Andromeda Nuevo stacking but with a 1" horned on a tinny baffle (Visaton WG, round is easier for the router)
I saw this little BMS 5S117... very low disto, but remember a test where the H3 was above H2 but still at low %. The 6s117 or the 6NR117 could also work with a horned tweeter I assume.
I am not too much appealed by 3" domes for a 12". I dunno for real but the usual low cut-offs seen here and there around 400 hz do not seem natural for a so low emmisive surface. 800 to 1000 hz seems more logical - theorical I know- but what thre advantage then ? Too much high cut off there for a 12" maybe (theorically), no ? And for what cut off ? 1.5 octave above at 3000 hz, 4 000 hz at best ? Very complicated I find. I saw the Biesma paper is an option when monney is involved VS the expensive Be. Volt not an option and heard it was not so sota sound for that monney... Who to believe?. The Scan Speak dome has a crazy good sounding reputation, but certainly too short spl to follow the 12"...
Thanks for the BMS 1" tip and 800 hz cut off (thanks weltersys as well 🙂 ). I have to check howmuch an outsourced print of the Mabatt horn cost.
I saw this little BMS 5S117... very low disto, but remember a test where the H3 was above H2 but still at low %. The 6s117 or the 6NR117 could also work with a horned tweeter I assume.
I am not too much appealed by 3" domes for a 12". I dunno for real but the usual low cut-offs seen here and there around 400 hz do not seem natural for a so low emmisive surface. 800 to 1000 hz seems more logical - theorical I know- but what thre advantage then ? Too much high cut off there for a 12" maybe (theorically), no ? And for what cut off ? 1.5 octave above at 3000 hz, 4 000 hz at best ? Very complicated I find. I saw the Biesma paper is an option when monney is involved VS the expensive Be. Volt not an option and heard it was not so sota sound for that monney... Who to believe?. The Scan Speak dome has a crazy good sounding reputation, but certainly too short spl to follow the 12"...
Thanks for the BMS 1" tip and 800 hz cut off (thanks weltersys as well 🙂 ). I have to check howmuch an outsourced print of the Mabatt horn cost.
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My 2c...
Consider the 12" a low-mid driver, knowing it needs a driver below, as well as the CD above that you're already planning.
I'd try to hold it to 3 octaves, say 100 to 7-800Hz. I'd try to keep the 12" within pistonic range, so the real goal is finding a CD/horn combo you like that makes it down to 700-800Hz. I also think that xover range is likely to make for a very good directivtity match .
I have a couple of spare 12pr320s and RCF HF 950 horns. I think they would go super together.
I don't have any spare regular type CD's that would work well to 700-800Hz, or i would try this real quick. I'm sure coax CD's with the HF950 and 12pr320 would rock, although the single faital will be the weak element (by alot)
Consider the 12" a low-mid driver, knowing it needs a driver below, as well as the CD above that you're already planning.
I'd try to hold it to 3 octaves, say 100 to 7-800Hz. I'd try to keep the 12" within pistonic range, so the real goal is finding a CD/horn combo you like that makes it down to 700-800Hz. I also think that xover range is likely to make for a very good directivtity match .
I have a couple of spare 12pr320s and RCF HF 950 horns. I think they would go super together.
I don't have any spare regular type CD's that would work well to 700-800Hz, or i would try this real quick. I'm sure coax CD's with the HF950 and 12pr320 would rock, although the single faital will be the weak element (by alot)
That's what I wanted initially, or a Voice of theater... But too much big or spendy, like for instance Seas L26Roy plate amped in 40 liters sealed, then a 12" for the cool 60-80 hz to 400-600 hz then the huge horn or a Yushi/Tad like bi-radiall, then electronic EQ cause the low average horn patern and CD... Way too much for the space, my wallet, the 35/40 square meter living room.
Yes, the 12PR320 is a midwoofer but I assume for my needs with a little help from my friends and the room gain, the 50 hz smooth F3 will be ok. The smooth plunging low end of the Kafffiman/Mbrennwa/ Paul V in the OSMC and OSM tower evolution looks fine for this driver. Ok not a 15" or a ScanSpeak 10" or 12" with low Fs, but the Faital looked to me a good trade off for a three W classic or two ways horned (but fear a little of the complexity with passive filter).
104 L with 19 mm panels is 65 cm heigth, 55 cm deep, 37 ccm width... still manageable in a non dedicated room, here the living room if good enough... if not the ply is good for the winter due the gaz price that exploded in Europe due to all the worldwide mess !
Coax CD equals BMS ? The Faital HF108R too much polite ? The new Tetreme Faital 1460 is spendy and many relate a too polite sound with that material.
I cope to what our international Earl G is saying : at home level, many compression are good enough to go lower than datasheet suggest... and that's a... commodity ! I like that... sounds rock'n roll, no ? 🙂. What a mess CNC cutting and 3D printing is so much expensive yet in France for enthusiasts !
Yes, the 12PR320 is a midwoofer but I assume for my needs with a little help from my friends and the room gain, the 50 hz smooth F3 will be ok. The smooth plunging low end of the Kafffiman/Mbrennwa/ Paul V in the OSMC and OSM tower evolution looks fine for this driver. Ok not a 15" or a ScanSpeak 10" or 12" with low Fs, but the Faital looked to me a good trade off for a three W classic or two ways horned (but fear a little of the complexity with passive filter).
104 L with 19 mm panels is 65 cm heigth, 55 cm deep, 37 ccm width... still manageable in a non dedicated room, here the living room if good enough... if not the ply is good for the winter due the gaz price that exploded in Europe due to all the worldwide mess !
Coax CD equals BMS ? The Faital HF108R too much polite ? The new Tetreme Faital 1460 is spendy and many relate a too polite sound with that material.
I cope to what our international Earl G is saying : at home level, many compression are good enough to go lower than datasheet suggest... and that's a... commodity ! I like that... sounds rock'n roll, no ? 🙂. What a mess CNC cutting and 3D printing is so much expensive yet in France for enthusiasts !
I use the Faital 12PR300 and the 12PR320 for moderate level PA. The woofers have a very smooth and linear breakup region above 1KHz which makes it easy to crossover to a 1" CD on an approx. 12" wide horn. These sorts of designs are meant to use the woofer beyond its pistonic range, because that is also the range where the directivity increases due to cancellation.
You want to balance the smoothness of the directivity transition and woofer breakup modes, compression driver distortion to get an optimal compromise. No single parameter will be textbook perfect. Higher-order XO slopes help too.
I cross these Faital woofers to a Faital HF10AK on a QSC clone at 1300Hz LR4 and the sound is really quite excellent, either for PA or in my living room. But at home a lower crossover @ 800Hz would probably sound very nice too, as long as you aren't pounding the compression driver too hard. I would be more concerned with finding a 1" horn that sounds good in the higher octaves.
You want to balance the smoothness of the directivity transition and woofer breakup modes, compression driver distortion to get an optimal compromise. No single parameter will be textbook perfect. Higher-order XO slopes help too.
I cross these Faital woofers to a Faital HF10AK on a QSC clone at 1300Hz LR4 and the sound is really quite excellent, either for PA or in my living room. But at home a lower crossover @ 800Hz would probably sound very nice too, as long as you aren't pounding the compression driver too hard. I would be more concerned with finding a 1" horn that sounds good in the higher octaves.
400Hz is probably on the low side for the Bliesma but 500Hz is quite doable, they work surprisingly well on ordinary baffles but do not match that well with most waveguided tweeters. They radiate too widely and need a quite shallow waveguide or no waveguide on the tweeter. Because of the light weight and strong motor they are super efficient. I can see no real downside to use them in an OSMC style speaker, whether the wide directivity is a good or bad thing is quite a personal decision. As to matching with the 12PR320, it is still pretty wide radiating at 500 to 600Hz so I can't see any real issue with mating them there otherwise I wouldn't be considering doing it 🙂
TNT had some made a the price wasn't outrageous, I'm not sure if this link shows the final price but it gives you an idea
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-6843438
It would be quite simple to make a Mezzo Calpamos style speaker, the HF108 can go very low on a big horn, I have seen it measured usable down to 600Hz with a loading optimized profile but it needs help to get there, I would choose something else for a low crossover point on a more ordinary horn profile.
There are always better ways to do anything but for a simple good quality speaker build the Mezzo Calpamos or something like it looks like a pretty good option.
What about the largish ST280 in spite of the 260 ? Could get maybe 700 hz . As my daily system is a 5" in the woofer and midrange, something more controlled directivity is apealling as something more nowadays way to go I assume.
looking forward to have your listening impressions of the Biesma 3", have you the paper version ?
the BMS 1" looks like a screw throat...maybe not the good candidate for Mabatt's ST horn bolt ?
the 12pr320 seems happy in 400 hz (edit) and up range in a short fast Xsim I made thanks to Mbrennwa frd files, here on a circa 37 cm baffle:
looking forward to have your listening impressions of the Biesma 3", have you the paper version ?
the BMS 1" looks like a screw throat...maybe not the good candidate for Mabatt's ST horn bolt ?
the 12pr320 seems happy in 400 hz (edit) and up range in a short fast Xsim I made thanks to Mbrennwa frd files, here on a circa 37 cm baffle:
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