Hi hifi people
Have a question/problem with filterdesign in XSim, and my replacement drivers in my "upgraded" Jamo D590 project.
Are going to replace the orginal tweeter/midrange/woofer from my Jamo D590, and insteed use:
Sb Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 for tweeter
SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 Aluminum Dome Tweeter
2 x Faithal pro 5fe-120 8 Ohm for highbass/midrange
FaitalPRO 5FE120 - 5"
Peerlees SLS 830667 (8Ohm) for woofer
Peerless by Tymphany SLS-P830667 - 8" Subwoofer
Have spend many many hours simulating in XSim, and begain to get a nice curve, but the value´s on some of the component´s is abnormus.
This is only my secund xover i have build, and i know sometimes especially the capacitor value can by high but mine are ridiculous!.
Notice one of the pic´s has 1dB scale and the other ordinary 5dB, but look at the values like 1000uF in the bass-section and for example the 300 Ohm resistor in the midrange-sektion!
Could really need some help here.
Best regards John/Sweden
Have a question/problem with filterdesign in XSim, and my replacement drivers in my "upgraded" Jamo D590 project.
Are going to replace the orginal tweeter/midrange/woofer from my Jamo D590, and insteed use:
Sb Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 for tweeter
SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 Aluminum Dome Tweeter
2 x Faithal pro 5fe-120 8 Ohm for highbass/midrange
FaitalPRO 5FE120 - 5"
Peerlees SLS 830667 (8Ohm) for woofer
Peerless by Tymphany SLS-P830667 - 8" Subwoofer
Have spend many many hours simulating in XSim, and begain to get a nice curve, but the value´s on some of the component´s is abnormus.
This is only my secund xover i have build, and i know sometimes especially the capacitor value can by high but mine are ridiculous!.
Notice one of the pic´s has 1dB scale and the other ordinary 5dB, but look at the values like 1000uF in the bass-section and for example the 300 Ohm resistor in the midrange-sektion!
Could really need some help here.
Best regards John/Sweden
Attachments
In the second image the yellow response looks sensible. Is it for one or two of the midrange units. I can only see an S2 and not an S2 and S3 ?
I think the tweeter response is extended to low in an attempt to maintain the overall level. Maybe a change of inductor to 0.18 - 0.3mH and tweaks to the capacitor such that the red and yellow traces mirror each other at your 3Khz crossover.
I would ditch the C7 for the time being and maybe adjust L1 to half its value and explore a crossover to the mid or mids at 250-400Hz, you will need to tune the capacitors C3 and C4 to match. Which will then require re adjustment of the mid roll on to suit.
Maybe consider sharing your files and see how others knock it into shape.
I think the tweeter response is extended to low in an attempt to maintain the overall level. Maybe a change of inductor to 0.18 - 0.3mH and tweaks to the capacitor such that the red and yellow traces mirror each other at your 3Khz crossover.
I would ditch the C7 for the time being and maybe adjust L1 to half its value and explore a crossover to the mid or mids at 250-400Hz, you will need to tune the capacitors C3 and C4 to match. Which will then require re adjustment of the mid roll on to suit.
Maybe consider sharing your files and see how others knock it into shape.
Thanks for answering raymondj
Usealy i don´t have both s2 and s3 in windows when i work with filer, so many colures and they use to be the same. ( here it is)
(even if this was not exaktly the same, when look´t at it)
I will try you´r uggestion "change of inductor to 0.18 - 0.3mH and tweaks to the capacitor such that the red and yellow traces mirror each other", and "ditch the C7"
But how and where do i "sharing your files and see how others knock it into shape"?
Best regards
John/Sweden
Usealy i don´t have both s2 and s3 in windows when i work with filer, so many colures and they use to be the same. ( here it is)
(even if this was not exaktly the same, when look´t at it)
I will try you´r uggestion "change of inductor to 0.18 - 0.3mH and tweaks to the capacitor such that the red and yellow traces mirror each other", and "ditch the C7"
But how and where do i "sharing your files and see how others knock it into shape"?
Best regards
John/Sweden
Attachments
Forgot to answer about the woofer xover-point, i have read that downfiring-woofers ( as tha Jamo D590 have), shouldn't be crossed higher than about 150 hz.
The low vocal´s etc must come from the midwoofer/midrange.
( ditch the C7 and it give better low-end 🙂...Don´t know why i had it, but was quite tired after 7-80 hour´s of filterbuilding)
Regards John
The low vocal´s etc must come from the midwoofer/midrange.
( ditch the C7 and it give better low-end 🙂...Don´t know why i had it, but was quite tired after 7-80 hour´s of filterbuilding)
Regards John
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When I commented I didnt know the details of the speaker.
I now know it is a MTM with a down firing woofer, and if others have told you 150Hz is optimum for this type of design, then take their advice.
The slot at the back of the cabinet is it for the woofer unit or the two midranges?
As to attaching your files. maybe zip the project or individual driver files and attach much like your image. Maybe let us know about driver centre to centre distances if you cannot zip the whole project?
I now know it is a MTM with a down firing woofer, and if others have told you 150Hz is optimum for this type of design, then take their advice.
The slot at the back of the cabinet is it for the woofer unit or the two midranges?
As to attaching your files. maybe zip the project or individual driver files and attach much like your image. Maybe let us know about driver centre to centre distances if you cannot zip the whole project?
Understand raymondj, i should have told it was a downfiring woofer!
The slot is for the woofer, and it is 100mm wide pipe, 130 mm long ( have to make it about 320 mm long i think)
And the MTM area is sealed in about 3 liter each for the midrange´s, and the woofer have almost all cabinett to work in.
Maby about 50-60 liter reflex.
Here a pic on the distance for the MTM, im sooo not technical with zip files and tech.
Regard John
The slot is for the woofer, and it is 100mm wide pipe, 130 mm long ( have to make it about 320 mm long i think)
And the MTM area is sealed in about 3 liter each for the midrange´s, and the woofer have almost all cabinett to work in.
Maby about 50-60 liter reflex.
Here a pic on the distance for the MTM, im sooo not technical with zip files and tech.
Regard John
Attachments
If i try to make the files to Zip, my program 7 zip dosen´t accept ZMA & FRD files ??.
How do you do ?
Regards John
How do you do ?
Regards John
I havent got Xsim on this laptop, so my questions are basically about trying to allow you to paste your design files.
In Xsim, can you open this current design as a project, or do you have a separate crossover file called Xover.dxo and then the three driver frequency files (.frd). sb26.frd 5fe120.frd and peerless woofer.frd with their matching (.zma) files sb26.zma, 5fe120.zma and peerless woofer.zma. You should be able to see them in your Xsim folder. Could you zip them and attach the zipped file?
We also now understand that the mids will live in a approx 3 litres or so. We will need to understand what this does to their LF response and consider that if it gives a bit more of a boost at the low end 150-300 Hz and there will be some diffraction or baffle step as well to consider, although the cabinet width and cabinet shape may mean there is very little.
All of these may work in a positive way or may mean some more components in the crossover.
What happened to the original drivers, I am guessing they were good quality, vifa or scanspeak units. The tweeter looks a lot like a scan d2008/2010 and corresponding 5 inch paper drivers??
The files that you are using are they traces of the manufacturers data or measured results with the drivers in the cabinets?
In Xsim, can you open this current design as a project, or do you have a separate crossover file called Xover.dxo and then the three driver frequency files (.frd). sb26.frd 5fe120.frd and peerless woofer.frd with their matching (.zma) files sb26.zma, 5fe120.zma and peerless woofer.zma. You should be able to see them in your Xsim folder. Could you zip them and attach the zipped file?
We also now understand that the mids will live in a approx 3 litres or so. We will need to understand what this does to their LF response and consider that if it gives a bit more of a boost at the low end 150-300 Hz and there will be some diffraction or baffle step as well to consider, although the cabinet width and cabinet shape may mean there is very little.
All of these may work in a positive way or may mean some more components in the crossover.
What happened to the original drivers, I am guessing they were good quality, vifa or scanspeak units. The tweeter looks a lot like a scan d2008/2010 and corresponding 5 inch paper drivers??
The files that you are using are they traces of the manufacturers data or measured results with the drivers in the cabinets?
Hi again
In the zip file i post a few minutes ago its a file called "Jamo upgrade_XSim.dxo", is this the dxo file you need or do you need exakt file ending "Xover.dxo" ?
The zip also contend zma and frd files for all drivers SB26ADC-C000-4, 5FE120-8 and peerless_sls 830667.
The zma and frd files was created in SPL Trace in VituixCAD, but im very exactly when i trace the SPL and impedance curves. ( so not measured results!)
Think orginal drivers are Jamo self-produced ( i send a pic), the drivers look´s quite "inexpensive" so i think a have alot of better sound on my way with my project,
The Scan Speak d2008 have only 3 mounting holes, and the d2010 have the membran deeper in the faceplate a belive.
The D590 had later come in a 50th anniversary version, but i have the original.
Regards John
In the zip file i post a few minutes ago its a file called "Jamo upgrade_XSim.dxo", is this the dxo file you need or do you need exakt file ending "Xover.dxo" ?
The zip also contend zma and frd files for all drivers SB26ADC-C000-4, 5FE120-8 and peerless_sls 830667.
The zma and frd files was created in SPL Trace in VituixCAD, but im very exactly when i trace the SPL and impedance curves. ( so not measured results!)
Think orginal drivers are Jamo self-produced ( i send a pic), the drivers look´s quite "inexpensive" so i think a have alot of better sound on my way with my project,
The Scan Speak d2008 have only 3 mounting holes, and the d2010 have the membran deeper in the faceplate a belive.
The D590 had later come in a 50th anniversary version, but i have the original.
Regards John
Attachments
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I guess its typical that the drivers are not as pretty as the cabinets. Although, if well implemented they would sound good. As you point out you have drivers with more potential now.
I downloaded Xsim and had a play. I have attached the dxo file I hope it works. I did manage to change a few things. but it uses some big values still. Impedance is still pretty low!!
I downloaded Xsim and had a play. I have attached the dxo file I hope it works. I did manage to change a few things. but it uses some big values still. Impedance is still pretty low!!
Yes it´s so "typical that the drivers are not as pretty as the cabinets", but guess its the same in all lowcost speaker.
But buy them mostely for the pretty and good cabinette (26 kg rigid). it has potential !.....And waf friendly 🙂
Unfortunately I can´t open your dxo file, XSim say´s error in file on every zma/frd ??
I have lower the tweeters inductor now to 0,22mH, change first cap to 12uF and also put a 36uF capacitor after (3rd Order)
Does it look better now raymondj?
Buy the way, my wanted xover-point´s are 150hz and 2700 hz
Some low impedance from 4k and up, between 3 and 2,4 Ohm!
Regards John
But buy them mostely for the pretty and good cabinette (26 kg rigid). it has potential !.....And waf friendly 🙂
Unfortunately I can´t open your dxo file, XSim say´s error in file on every zma/frd ??
I have lower the tweeters inductor now to 0,22mH, change first cap to 12uF and also put a 36uF capacitor after (3rd Order)
Does it look better now raymondj?
Buy the way, my wanted xover-point´s are 150hz and 2700 hz
Some low impedance from 4k and up, between 3 and 2,4 Ohm!
Regards John
Attachments
My XSim suddenly crash, maby it cant handle 100+ hours.
But now when i re-start hole lap-top, i can open your file Raymondj !
I will look at it tomorrow ( its midnight here in Sweden).
Thank´s Raymondj
regards John
But now when i re-start hole lap-top, i can open your file Raymondj !
I will look at it tomorrow ( its midnight here in Sweden).
Thank´s Raymondj
regards John
I guess all we have done is refine your original.
For better or worse, only listening backed up by measurement will tell. Even if by chance you hit a sweet sounding combination the room could change it all. Measurements also show how far we can be out by ear. However, if you are happy with the sound that is all that matters.
In terms of the drivers and cabinets there are still plenty of variables left. it would be nice to try and further simplify your crossovers and get back to some more sensible and hence relatively cheap components.
Additionally I haven't though about or applied any of the basic rules for a D'Appolito configuration. It might be worth trying that with your sensible crossover frequencies and then tune the woofer for the MTM array and your room.
For better or worse, only listening backed up by measurement will tell. Even if by chance you hit a sweet sounding combination the room could change it all. Measurements also show how far we can be out by ear. However, if you are happy with the sound that is all that matters.
In terms of the drivers and cabinets there are still plenty of variables left. it would be nice to try and further simplify your crossovers and get back to some more sensible and hence relatively cheap components.
Additionally I haven't though about or applied any of the basic rules for a D'Appolito configuration. It might be worth trying that with your sensible crossover frequencies and then tune the woofer for the MTM array and your room.
Your last image is obviously better.
Its always a case of iteration. All simulations are possibilities.
Listening and making changes is time consuming to say the least. Measurements make it faster, then making changes and more listening to correct obvious areas of concern.
I have attached another possible starting point.
It is still a compromise. Also Post Covid prices for copper plus worldwide demand means low impedance inductors with lots of copper are expensive and some are on projected lead times for stock.
I haven't had time yet to figure out how the two mids will react to their volume, they may roll off quite naturally without two much help, or there may be a peak which will need working
Its always a case of iteration. All simulations are possibilities.
Listening and making changes is time consuming to say the least. Measurements make it faster, then making changes and more listening to correct obvious areas of concern.
I have attached another possible starting point.
It is still a compromise. Also Post Covid prices for copper plus worldwide demand means low impedance inductors with lots of copper are expensive and some are on projected lead times for stock.
I haven't had time yet to figure out how the two mids will react to their volume, they may roll off quite naturally without two much help, or there may be a peak which will need working
Attachments
Thank you so much rajmondj 🙂
You know when you sit a really long time making xover´s, you´r head begain to spin and in the end you hardley know what you´r doing!
Last XSim.dxo you post seems to have a nice curve and only 1 big 7,5mH coil, and a 130uF and 82uF capasitor.
My latest xover have a 5,36mH coil and 240,200 and 150uF capasitors, even if 2 of them are going to be cheep elektrolyt caps.
My livingroom is really big and the area goes all the way to the frontdoor 16 meter away with high celing ( about 4-5 meters), but i will play sideway´s in the end of the livingroom ( wall to wall about 3,8 meter but open at the right against the frontdoor)
And i have a few old 10mH coils to use in this project, and i can also winding my "own" coil from one value to another value.
Send my last XSim xover from this morning, and appreciate if you comment.
Both have about 14 component´s 🙂
Regards John
You know when you sit a really long time making xover´s, you´r head begain to spin and in the end you hardley know what you´r doing!
Last XSim.dxo you post seems to have a nice curve and only 1 big 7,5mH coil, and a 130uF and 82uF capasitor.
My latest xover have a 5,36mH coil and 240,200 and 150uF capasitors, even if 2 of them are going to be cheep elektrolyt caps.
My livingroom is really big and the area goes all the way to the frontdoor 16 meter away with high celing ( about 4-5 meters), but i will play sideway´s in the end of the livingroom ( wall to wall about 3,8 meter but open at the right against the frontdoor)
And i have a few old 10mH coils to use in this project, and i can also winding my "own" coil from one value to another value.
Send my last XSim xover from this morning, and appreciate if you comment.
Both have about 14 component´s 🙂
Regards John
Attachments
The frequency responses combined look good. Impedance is still relatively low, not overly valve amp friendly. What will you use to drive them?
I haven't had time to look at D'Appolito links, but from what I have seen from the page you linked to for your mid drivers they have a controlled roll off of their own at around 100Hz LF which with some experimentation or stuffing with a series cap could be made to work.
I see that you are running the tweeter without any attenuation. I was thinking along similar lines, but keeping some attenuation allows you to adjust the balance with the mid. You may get some mid rise in the cabinet, not a lot but you may need to bring that down. Which in turn means you will have to adjust tweeter level to blend in.
In an earlier post you mentioned that you thought you needed a long vent to tune the 8 bass unit. I guess you will have some fun with implementing that.
Re using old inductors is good and will allow you to keep costs down. It will be definitely worth keeping the crossovers external initially as you make adjustments. Can you make measurements with a soundcard and a mike to help with the final phases of balancing the sound across the drivers and room?
I haven't had time to look at D'Appolito links, but from what I have seen from the page you linked to for your mid drivers they have a controlled roll off of their own at around 100Hz LF which with some experimentation or stuffing with a series cap could be made to work.
I see that you are running the tweeter without any attenuation. I was thinking along similar lines, but keeping some attenuation allows you to adjust the balance with the mid. You may get some mid rise in the cabinet, not a lot but you may need to bring that down. Which in turn means you will have to adjust tweeter level to blend in.
In an earlier post you mentioned that you thought you needed a long vent to tune the 8 bass unit. I guess you will have some fun with implementing that.
Re using old inductors is good and will allow you to keep costs down. It will be definitely worth keeping the crossovers external initially as you make adjustments. Can you make measurements with a soundcard and a mike to help with the final phases of balancing the sound across the drivers and room?
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Hello there
No unfortunately i don´t have a mic or soundcard, but what to learn me that to so i will probually buy a Umik-1 when i can, so i don´t have to wait 8-10 month for my friend.
I have a electro engineer hifi friend how lives 1,5 hour away but he´s always busy with 10+ project´s, and he have said to me sinse mars 2021 "that he will come over and make measurements....Wonder witch year hahaha!
Yea, the needed long vent for the woofer will be a challange, but im stubborn.
Hard to say if the midrange-volyme is 3 or 4 liter but around that, so hopefully the Faital_5FE120_8Ω will work good from 150 hz.
And look´s hard to get a good impedance-curve and i think i have to accept the dipp around 2,1 Ohm at 10.000 hz and the 2,4 ohm dipp at 90 hz.
Today i have a Onkyo tx nr747 Onkyo TX-NR747 – AV Receiver Reviews
But dot know how stabile it is at around 2 Ohm´s ? ( will try to read)
Filter components are expensive even if i have find a site in Poland how have almost half price!
BlackDotAudio: głośniki, zwrotnice do kolumn, przewody i akcesoria DIY audio
So glad for you´r assistence Raymondj, because some times you´r stuck and need a "hand" to get forward.
Regards John
No unfortunately i don´t have a mic or soundcard, but what to learn me that to so i will probually buy a Umik-1 when i can, so i don´t have to wait 8-10 month for my friend.
I have a electro engineer hifi friend how lives 1,5 hour away but he´s always busy with 10+ project´s, and he have said to me sinse mars 2021 "that he will come over and make measurements....Wonder witch year hahaha!
Yea, the needed long vent for the woofer will be a challange, but im stubborn.
Hard to say if the midrange-volyme is 3 or 4 liter but around that, so hopefully the Faital_5FE120_8Ω will work good from 150 hz.
And look´s hard to get a good impedance-curve and i think i have to accept the dipp around 2,1 Ohm at 10.000 hz and the 2,4 ohm dipp at 90 hz.
Today i have a Onkyo tx nr747 Onkyo TX-NR747 – AV Receiver Reviews
But dot know how stabile it is at around 2 Ohm´s ? ( will try to read)
Filter components are expensive even if i have find a site in Poland how have almost half price!
BlackDotAudio: głośniki, zwrotnice do kolumn, przewody i akcesoria DIY audio
So glad for you´r assistence Raymondj, because some times you´r stuck and need a "hand" to get forward.
Regards John
Better test with spec for Onkyo 747, but i have europe version 240 volt.
Onkyo TX-NR747 Review and Specs
Have a Cramco vortex 6 also in my basement if i cabt use the Onkyo, stabile for 2 ohm load
Onkyo TX-NR747 Review and Specs
Have a Cramco vortex 6 also in my basement if i cabt use the Onkyo, stabile for 2 ohm load