Thanks. Smoothing helps but not much correlation.
I would say that the cardioid directivity is helping you with boundary interference in the mid bass.
Did you really mean to set -20 degree toe in???
I would say that the cardioid directivity is helping you with boundary interference in the mid bass.
Did you really mean to set -20 degree toe in???
@nc535: I measured the speaker at 20 degrees off axis, which was the reference/design axis. That is why I set the toe in as 20 degrees. Found the mistake. The reference axis & listening spot is already set in the simulation. So I don't need that toe in
Here is the plot
Here is the plot
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I am not sure how to read the picture but it looks like the speaker is toed in towards the left wall not towards you.
Edit: not sure. may be that's what you wanted to do.
Edit: not sure. may be that's what you wanted to do.
Thanks, I didn't know it was possible to use an audio interface like that. I thought the surround chip in the HTR was required. How do you assign the channels with an external sound card?
I forgot, I also had problems using Optimizer to flatten the individual drivers. I solved it by taking outdoor measurements then using the low frequency merger tool. Or maybe I just got lucky. But yes, I ran into that as well. I should figure out the best way to do it before I suggest it to someone else again. If it requires outdoor measurements at 12 feet up then it might not be feasible. Hopefully that's not necessary.
As final take on treatment I would like to request something. Since you already went into lengths of spending time designing and perfecting your speaker, can you find a friend or a contact who has decent treatment done, where you can take your speakers and have a listen? In fact major cities like bangalore do have decent studios for rent on hourly basis. I would like to hear your opinion on how it sounds in a decently treated room. Of course all this at your own leisure only if possible. Cheers!
P.S. some measurements would be great too 🙂
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Just my few final thoughts.
As you can see room owns the speaker and will dictate where and how it should be placed. After all you optimised your small box and now placed it in a bigger box(room) that is not optimised.
Also getting a omindirectional measurement from LP would reveal the actual room dynamics and how it is playing a role in your listening experience.
I think I forgot to post a pic of the secret sauce for this project here.. 😀
Here it is (rings of basotect melamine foam, total 55mm thick under the sock cloth ):
Melamine foam absorption efficiency
Here it is (rings of basotect melamine foam, total 55mm thick under the sock cloth ):
Melamine foam absorption efficiency
Hi, and it seems to work remarkably well, great attenuation behind the box 🙂
Thats why, more so, I would like to have opinion how these might sound in a treated vs untreated room.
Hi,
I've got system with cardioid midrange as well and have had them on three very different rooms (my living room, and few visits to friends living rooms). None of the rooms were acoustically treated but very different RT60 times for example and subjective "room sound" ranges from comfortable to uncomfortable.
General observation I've had is that when listened far a way the sound is alike of the room, comfortable in comfortable room and bit noisy in a noisy room, no matter the polar pattern. Basically you'd always hear the quality of room acoustics in the sound when you listen far away no matter what the speaker directivity, and can always reduce sound of the room getting closer to speakers, shrinking the stereo listening triangle which increases direct / reflected sound ratio. In general, the speakers cannot change your room to sound some other room, your room always sounds your room, and speakers sound the speakers.
There is more to it of course, like bass modes in the room and practical limitations to positioning and here some specific tailor fit coverage pattern could help. But, if one can position freely, and have acoustic treatment to accompany, then it doesn't matter much which directivity the speaker has as long as the whole person/room/speaker system plays together nicely.
I've got system with cardioid midrange as well and have had them on three very different rooms (my living room, and few visits to friends living rooms). None of the rooms were acoustically treated but very different RT60 times for example and subjective "room sound" ranges from comfortable to uncomfortable.
General observation I've had is that when listened far a way the sound is alike of the room, comfortable in comfortable room and bit noisy in a noisy room, no matter the polar pattern. Basically you'd always hear the quality of room acoustics in the sound when you listen far away no matter what the speaker directivity, and can always reduce sound of the room getting closer to speakers, shrinking the stereo listening triangle which increases direct / reflected sound ratio. In general, the speakers cannot change your room to sound some other room, your room always sounds your room, and speakers sound the speakers.
There is more to it of course, like bass modes in the room and practical limitations to positioning and here some specific tailor fit coverage pattern could help. But, if one can position freely, and have acoustic treatment to accompany, then it doesn't matter much which directivity the speaker has as long as the whole person/room/speaker system plays together nicely.
+1 @tmuikku , in addition : our hearing system can sort of make the room influence a type of constant and then neglect it.
I believe that o'Toole also came to that conclusion in the research he and Olive and others have done. I believe he mentioned something like "listen through it".
I believe that o'Toole also came to that conclusion in the research he and Olive and others have done. I believe he mentioned something like "listen through it".
Yeah, although our hearing system is evolved millions of years ago and is alike between most humans, there is still some variability how we understand what we hear, what we are used to hear so what seems familiar and nice, and so on. It's also highly adaptive system as you say.
In general, try to target for comfortable and engaging sound you are drawn upon, and avoid noisy sound that would repel away, noise makes you want to escape the situation. Thus, it makes sense to pay attention to room acoustics for general well being at home. In loudspeaker context it makes sense to increase speaker directivity and shrink listening distance. Now if you do so the local room sound is not stirring the pot as much, which should make the sound more comfortable and engaging, but depending on recording and mood it could be even more annoying than with some room mixed in which averages things out.
My current thought on this is that anything works, I just adjust listening distance and toe-in if I want to change the (room) sound depending on what ever. Speaker system is setup so that it's easy. I've learned to listen where the sound changes, which enables to do this effectively, which also defines state of my system. So, main thing to get better sound is to develop your listening skill, at least be mindful about what is it that you hear and how to perhaps make it better for you. Building few different DI speakers and really listen and be curious about how room (positioning) affects perceived sound is key.
In general, try to target for comfortable and engaging sound you are drawn upon, and avoid noisy sound that would repel away, noise makes you want to escape the situation. Thus, it makes sense to pay attention to room acoustics for general well being at home. In loudspeaker context it makes sense to increase speaker directivity and shrink listening distance. Now if you do so the local room sound is not stirring the pot as much, which should make the sound more comfortable and engaging, but depending on recording and mood it could be even more annoying than with some room mixed in which averages things out.
My current thought on this is that anything works, I just adjust listening distance and toe-in if I want to change the (room) sound depending on what ever. Speaker system is setup so that it's easy. I've learned to listen where the sound changes, which enables to do this effectively, which also defines state of my system. So, main thing to get better sound is to develop your listening skill, at least be mindful about what is it that you hear and how to perhaps make it better for you. Building few different DI speakers and really listen and be curious about how room (positioning) affects perceived sound is key.
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Certainly your brain does a good job of filtering out a lot of room sound, but what remains still has a significant impact. What you measure is not the same as what you percieve. It is easy to verify by recording the sound of any oridnary item or process, even with a phone and then after a while play it back. You will hear the room on playback clearly and it will sound quite different to how you perceived it at the time.
Good points all of you.
P.S And once you get used to the treated room, sound from anything else becomes unbearable immediately.
Treating room is the biggest upgrade you can do to sound, well beyond any capacitor, opamp, driver, cabinet swap.
Fully agree on this point as you all pointed. But you folks did miss one point. All this comes at a cost that we all call fatigue. Treated rooms makes your brain to relax and just blend and melt with the sound. I could never listen for long hours in untreated room. Now time just flies before I noticed it's already half a day or night goes by.
P.S And once you get used to the treated room, sound from anything else becomes unbearable immediately.
Treating room is the biggest upgrade you can do to sound, well beyond any capacitor, opamp, driver, cabinet swap.
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Thank you Vineeth. I think the size of your room is a limiting factor wrt TimVG's one: his room is a fairly 'big' one ( in volume, can be seen from ceiling height and some visual clues in his vid) and it helps to make the directivity effect stand out more ( when he is located directly behind loudspeakers we clearly hear the room reverb rather than loudspeaker output - can be heard at begining of Tim's video too where he moves backward in front axis and we can hear the point where critical distance is crossed).
Anyway from yours i can tell it's a success from my pov, cardioid directivity is present and goes way lower in freq than one could be expecting from a coax of this size ( i can hear the same effect from waveguide on my tannoy 8" but 2 octave (maybe 3...) above yours.
Marcel's sim were right and the adaptation you made ( more in the Gradient way) is successful implementation.
As it's a multiamp dsp based system i would do 2 kind of filtering profile: one for mid/farfield situation ( a standard one) and another one for your nearfield/desk situation: this one will have issue with reflection in low mids ( effect of the desk reflections) and will probably give a weird response in the 150/300hz region. A dedicated eq profile might help in this case.
About sbir related issues i would go extreme and push the loudspeakers up close to the ( listener) facing wall ( loudspeaker's backwall): thanks to the cardioid directivity in yhe mid it should lower the drawback in lowmid/ mids and will push ( hopefully) frontwall sbir outside the range of interest for your third ( low) way. It will have the effect to boundary load your lowest way which is not a bad thing wrt headroom ( you could expect in the 3db gain). Bsc will change a bit too but it's a compromise we oftrn do when implementing small control rooms ( Genelec recommend this kind of location as a notch in the 80/100hz range is REALLY detrimental when working on audio).
If you want to simulate SBIR issues i advice this simulator as it is way more powerful than the one in Vcad imho:
https://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm
It helped me solve some issues in the past.
As it already been said you certainly preach to the choir. 😉
But not all can achieve treatments in room ( for good and bad reasons) and the most detrimental effects can be ( in part) managed through loudspeaker acoustic design and location in room.
Let's focus on this for the time being. I'm sure at one point Vineeth will go to the point where he will explore treatments too. 😉
Sure, I just want him to see the results as he is passionate about sound. Just pushing other folks too who are on the brink of thinking of treatment with a definitive statement now or in future. Its a open forum. Enjoy!