Hi Gents,
There is pretty widespread agreement that the KEF LS50 monitors are a truly outstanding commercial mini monitor. I wish I have had a chance to hear them but I haven't. For those of you who actually have heard them, have you ever heard a small DIY 2 way which you felt sounded as good or better OVERALL than the LS50s? Knowing the ingenuity and expertiese of the DIY community, it is hard for me to believe that one or more designs haven't been built which can better this 12 Liter, $1500 2 way, which sports a 5.5" woofer and dome tweeter. I know that "sounds better OVERALL" can be criticised for being vague and subject to listener tastes and prefferences, but I think it is an intuitive and generally useful standard for comparing any two speakers with each other. So, for those of you who have heard them, what is your judgement of the LS50 versus top quality DIY mini monitors?
Best,
Jay
There is pretty widespread agreement that the KEF LS50 monitors are a truly outstanding commercial mini monitor. I wish I have had a chance to hear them but I haven't. For those of you who actually have heard them, have you ever heard a small DIY 2 way which you felt sounded as good or better OVERALL than the LS50s? Knowing the ingenuity and expertiese of the DIY community, it is hard for me to believe that one or more designs haven't been built which can better this 12 Liter, $1500 2 way, which sports a 5.5" woofer and dome tweeter. I know that "sounds better OVERALL" can be criticised for being vague and subject to listener tastes and prefferences, but I think it is an intuitive and generally useful standard for comparing any two speakers with each other. So, for those of you who have heard them, what is your judgement of the LS50 versus top quality DIY mini monitors?
Best,
Jay
This may not answer your question, but KEF is currently selling* a pair of Q150 for $300. Now, I haven't heard these, or any KEF, but they have a great reputation. You can buy from affordable all the way up to "take out at 2nd mortgage" 🙂 If your needs are modest, these might be fine. Even at the low cost end, it is very hard to beat mass produced goods, especially if you are as inept at DIY as I am.
*Contrary to my signature, I'm seeing ads for them, at least is an example of a product I would buy, except I have a pair of perfectly good (used) speakers, plus several pairs of Bose 901 collecting dust in storage 🙂
*Contrary to my signature, I'm seeing ads for them, at least is an example of a product I would buy, except I have a pair of perfectly good (used) speakers, plus several pairs of Bose 901 collecting dust in storage 🙂
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Tough to beat if 12L box was a hard requirement. Keep in mind that the passive and active versions are very different. The active has wireless, DSP, built in 200w Class D amp for woofer and 30w Class AB for tweeter and is $2500. The passive is $940 and ported. I think the active sounds better. The passive version is a lot less expensive and if you look at the teardowns - it’s a very simple 1st order XO, lots of thick MDF with bracing, and a unique coaxial. The driver is what makes it special. If you could get a similar 5in coaxial, a DIY version would be better through use of better components and maybe a clever TL vs a bass reflex.
But at retail price of what the passive version costs, you can’t touch it with the size constraint.
If you relax the size constraint and double the volume to 24L then there are options that sound better for less money.
But at retail price of what the passive version costs, you can’t touch it with the size constraint.
If you relax the size constraint and double the volume to 24L then there are options that sound better for less money.
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I used to own the kef ls50, and preffered when i had in the same room the ls50, atc scm7 and P3esr. the ls50 was my least favorite, by far.
so yes, i think its quite doable to beat the ls50. my continnum from jeff bagby that i also own I think is better
so yes, i think its quite doable to beat the ls50. my continnum from jeff bagby that i also own I think is better
I doubt DIY is possible to beat small monitor like LS50 or LSiM703 at sound quality AND looks. The only exception I can think of is a professional carpenter.
If you're not a carpenter, you can match sound quality at the price point but not the looks.
Things are different if you aim at more expensive loudspeakers. Say, Wilson.
If you're not a carpenter, you can match sound quality at the price point but not the looks.
Things are different if you aim at more expensive loudspeakers. Say, Wilson.
A design that comes to mind is the the SB Revolution Mini Be - it is ~7L, so very compact. Features SB Acoustics Satori woofers and with the option of choosing fabric dome or beryllium tweeters. Designed by Jeff Bagby (RIP).
I haven't listened to the speaker, but it's a design with high quality components, and from a respected designer.
I haven't listened to the speaker, but it's a design with high quality components, and from a respected designer.
I couldn't disagree with you more.
First of all carpenters don't build quality furniture. They build houses, and offices, and room additions and other similar structures. Furniture builders and woodworkers build quality pieces for interior use.
There are plenty of woodworkers, both professional and amateur, who can create very high quality speaker cabinets. Items that can rival the appearance of manufactured speakers and in some cases even exceed them. There are numerous examples with pictures throughout this forum.
There are some DIYers here that have those woodworking skills and some that don't. But I don't accept a blanket statement that a DIY builder should automatically concede a commercial product is preferred based on appearance. Quite to the contrary. I think DIY has tremendous value with no real downside other than the amount of time and effort that is required.
Frankly, I don't like the looks of either the LS50 or the LSiM703. There are very cold and stark looking. Very plasticky. I really wouldn't like to be looking at either of them while listening to music. I'll take that one step further. I think the LSiM703 is actually ugly to look at.
I can build a speaker cabinet out of a beautiful, warm wood that will be much more pleasant to look at and enhance the music listening experience rather than degrade it.
So again, I think you have no argument for promoting these commercial products over DIY versions, which can sound better, look better, and cost a fraction of the price.
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You have a good point about 12L choices, but I doubt that many people really care if the speakers are that small. Even 24L is less than one cubic foot in size.
So do people really care about size that much over sound quality? I doubt it.
Also the Kef LS50 passive are not $940, except maybe from a questionable source on eBay. All reputable dealers are selling them for $1300.00.
I don't think this is really such a good deal compared to the various well established DIY kits that sell for a lot less and probably sound better.
There are so many to choose from that I can't list them all. But think about Kairos/Adelphos, Carrera, and Invictus, all well under $1,000, with quality drivers from well established outstanding designers.
There are even 2-channel kits under $500 per pair that I suspect would outperform the Kef LS50s.
I‘m not really sure why the LS50 have such a good reputation, perhaps only because of their form factor. I heard them a lot of times and always was very disappointed. The active version is a bit better, but still a joke if you look at the price. And if price is not a concern and you want it small, but very good sounding, buy a pair of boenicke W5SE. They destroy anything in this size and sound amazing.
KEF Q100 Speaker Review | Page 8 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
LS50 passive has two significant and broad peaks within the listening window. I found the 1.5-7kHz peak very audible as an obscuring sheen on brass instruments and sibilance. The 500Hz-1kHz gave it a hint of chestiness, but we are nearing the transition range in-room there, so it can vary. I heard it in a treated room, together with the contemporary R100. The LS50 is supposed to have a smoother response and higher max SPL than the R-series driver that it is derived from. That it does, with much lesser small wiggles in the response, but exposes broader, more audible low-Q peaks that broadly colour the sound in a disagreeable way.
The KEF Uni-Q is a stunning driver, but the tuning and implementation in the case of the LS50 passive really obscures its potential for a very coherent and smooth FR + dispersion. The R3 (and possibly, the modded LS50s out there) seem to eliminate these flaws though.
LS50 passive has two significant and broad peaks within the listening window. I found the 1.5-7kHz peak very audible as an obscuring sheen on brass instruments and sibilance. The 500Hz-1kHz gave it a hint of chestiness, but we are nearing the transition range in-room there, so it can vary. I heard it in a treated room, together with the contemporary R100. The LS50 is supposed to have a smoother response and higher max SPL than the R-series driver that it is derived from. That it does, with much lesser small wiggles in the response, but exposes broader, more audible low-Q peaks that broadly colour the sound in a disagreeable way.
The KEF Uni-Q is a stunning driver, but the tuning and implementation in the case of the LS50 passive really obscures its potential for a very coherent and smooth FR + dispersion. The R3 (and possibly, the modded LS50s out there) seem to eliminate these flaws though.
The Continuum which I really like are not better. The Continuums are a bargain though. Did you have them at the same time to compare?
How much would you charge if I ask you to make a LS50 or LSiM cabinet? Please note that both aren't rectangular.
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As a woodworker I take a lot of pride in what I create, and that includes speaker cabinets. My aesthetics would not allow me to create something as ugly as either of those speakers. Particularly the LSiM703, that I find to be very difficult to look at for any lengthy period of time. It reminds me of a weird face.
So I must politely decline your request for a price quotation at this time based on my personal aesthetic standards.
However, cabinet design and cost are becoming less of an issue now. There is a realization among many that Siegfried Linkwitz was right. That the best cabinet is no cabinet. So a lot of this discussion is moot as people move more and more into Open Baffle. And that is exactly where I intend to go for my next DIY build.
I sadly couldn't hear the two side by side (only separately) but I feel, as an extremely biased builder, that my attempt at an active monitor is at least as good as the LS50. At least in my use, which is nearfield listening.
It's a bit less user friendly, due to the older hypex plate amps I use (as2.100d). Total budget was about 950€ (400€ in plate amps, 400€ in drivers/hardware, 150€ in wood/veneer/etc).
As for aesthetics... well I'm no woodworker but I still prefer what I built to the ls50. But again, I'm biased as hell.
It's a bit less user friendly, due to the older hypex plate amps I use (as2.100d). Total budget was about 950€ (400€ in plate amps, 400€ in drivers/hardware, 150€ in wood/veneer/etc).
As for aesthetics... well I'm no woodworker but I still prefer what I built to the ls50. But again, I'm biased as hell.
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I personally find both very nice looking. Owned both Kefs and Polks.
I asked about the price because both enclosures are quite advanced. I live in Poland in a flat. I don't have space to practice woodworking and ordered several enclosures in the past, including OB. Enclosures, similar to LSiM 703 or LS50 will cost around 500-600 USD in Poland. Made to the quality of originals, without cutting edges. LS50 costs $940 for a complete pair of speakers on US Amazon. I bought mine LSiM for €600 on German Amazon. Last December bought brand new KEF R500 for €800-something. I don't see how one can match the price of off the shelf speakers with a DIY project if he's not making enclosures himself. And don't forget resale value.
There is no financial reason to DIY speakers similar to LS50. The only reason is the fun when making them.
I owned and modded both LS50 and R300 (from which R3 descended). LS50 when modded does most of the things right but bass and bassmid is of really poor quality. That seems to be the characteristic of the driver rather than crossover or cabinet (that is maybe the best i've seen in a standmount). R300 is also a good speaker but something in construction of their woofer makes it sound bad. It is good up to about 100hz but after that it is just muffled until the midrange kicks in at about 500hz. That is my experience, maybe someone other wouldn't find them lacking. Same thing i heard listening to new R7. My modification of R300 measures maybe a tad better than R3.
Seconded, I heard the LS50 and own the Revolution Be. The LS50 is not even close.
The Revolution Be has the most integrated midrange I ever experienced in a conventional 2 way bookshelf with the closest practical realisation of a point source (not as good as the Linkwitz Pluto but its too low fidelity).
I spent a good week trying very hard to hear when the beryllium tweeter hands over to the Satori paper cone but could never notice it. I have noticed this on the Ara Be kit.
Even the Revolution be with the ceramic mid are better than the LS50.
There are others that better the LS50 but not within the tight 12L restriction.