I think you have to get your wish list together. To do part of that:
One remark: a flaw in the design of the DTQWT is the lack of a higpass for the Jantzen driver. That driver has limited excursion capability (3mm Xmax) and with serious SPL it won't be acting very linear when driven low frequencies of e.g. 50-80Hz. So....
- download some SPL meter for your smartphone. On iOS try SPLnFFT, AudioTools or Etani RSA
- Wait for a moment that you can turn the music on real loud and measure the SPL either C-weighted, full spectrum or in octave bands on the spectrum analyzer apps.
- Most likely, you won't reach far above 100dB. That means any smaller speaker likely will do and you really don't need big designs. Skip the big two and go look for something like the Ekta's. But in fact a good designed 2 way 6"-1" with waveguide would fit the bill almost perfectly.
- If you reach levels in the range 110dB or far more, go out and look for speakers like the FaitalPro design of Gravesen. I suggest checking out the Calpamos from Tony Gee (humblehomemadehifi.nl) too. As a bass player himself, Tony understands what it is to tune pro speakers in ways that they actually do the low E (41Hz). Not all other designers go there.
One remark: a flaw in the design of the DTQWT is the lack of a higpass for the Jantzen driver. That driver has limited excursion capability (3mm Xmax) and with serious SPL it won't be acting very linear when driven low frequencies of e.g. 50-80Hz. So....
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silence, you express the appeal for me of the DTQWT very well. With regards to the warning from Troels above, about the target customers for these speakers, are you using valves to power them?
Thanks for this brilliant suggestion - I was wondering if something basic like this could be done with just my i mac or a phone - your tip is empowering and I will give it a try and get back if needs be.
Interestingly, Troels made exactly the same comment about the Jantzen driver when I contacted him.
It is a high efficiency horn! (And yes, he designed it for SET amps, which doesn't mean you can't use a moderate power SS like the one on the OP) You don't need high excursions on that controller and you won't see them move on the 10 "Eminence either (DTQWTII ) playing 40 hz at high levels .........
Troels said: "there is no better pass capacitor than the one that does not exist", but anyone can calculate the value and add the capacitor they want so that the driver does not go below 150 Hz (again, it is the cross with the Eminence , data that you provided, does not appear in your articles, nor does the admissible power appear, people who know how to use and understand your systems do not need this value)
All of the above refers to the "old" JA8008, the new HMQ possibly has a lower Xmax on purpose, because Troels mentions that it achieved higher dynamics and compensated for the slight loss of SPL caused by the addition of a phase plug with a BL reinforcement ( bigger magnet / better coil)
" DTQWT is in principle a 2-way with integrated subwoofers, thus no high-pass filter on the main front driver. This has the indisputable advantage of not needing any series capacitors, which would be excessively expensive if of good quality and sonically inferior to no caps, no matter how good the caps are.
Loading a horn helps keeping front driver membrane in place due to high acoustic impedance compared to a vented enclosure or open baffle and this is further assisted by the mode of action of all drivers. "
DTQWT-mkII
Loading a horn helps keeping front driver membrane in place due to high acoustic impedance compared to a vented enclosure or open baffle and this is further assisted by the mode of action of all drivers. "
DTQWT-mkII
I wouldn't know, the only spec of the old 8008 mentions a 6mm pole piece. And I certainly wouldn't spoil the fun people have with this remarkable design. About the horn thing: it's not really, with that mouth ending in a small slit between the cabinet and the floor. More likely some mass loading TL. You can see this in the impedance curve on Troels' site. High peaks mean low radiation impedance from the cabinet. Look at 80Hz. A horn has to couple it's mouth to free air in order to work.
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Does it have to be a design by TG?
I'm not a huge fan of his speakers. Especially since they are extremely expensive, not least because of the Voodoo crossover parts.
The measurements are usually not really convincing. Cheaper speakers are often better at this.
One of the best speakers I've ever heard are the Mona Kea by donhighend. They cost about 1200 € per pair and I'm pretty sure that no box from TG is really better.
Mona Kea – 4 Wege Referenzlautsprecher – Donhighend Audio
I'm not a huge fan of his speakers. Especially since they are extremely expensive, not least because of the Voodoo crossover parts.
The measurements are usually not really convincing. Cheaper speakers are often better at this.
One of the best speakers I've ever heard are the Mona Kea by donhighend. They cost about 1200 € per pair and I'm pretty sure that no box from TG is really better.
Mona Kea – 4 Wege Referenzlautsprecher – Donhighend Audio
the distance between the cabinet and the floor acts as a tuning for a BR. Troes says so, it's a TL / tqwt (a hybrid) I don't have fun with them, I enjoy them, I haven't altered them in the least, I have fun doing other mods. in my system.
What do you mean " in order to work " ?
I think they do, sound comes out down there, and not just low frequencies because the back wave of the midrange driver does it down there as well. Believe me, I heard Ella Fitzgerald lying on the floor with my ear glued to the groove. A wonderful experience.
I think they do, sound comes out down there, and not just low frequencies because the back wave of the midrange driver does it down there as well. Believe me, I heard Ella Fitzgerald lying on the floor with my ear glued to the groove. A wonderful experience.
Hears ! It is good to know, it had not occurred to me to look on the Troels site, I bought the kit, and I assembled it exclusively by looking at the construction plan.
No, it doesn't have to be; I've looked at Selah Audio, USA, for example, and I hear good things about Rick Craig but there's Zero info on the website about what's inside those boxes, other than the speakers used. I must say that the Mona Kea is a stunningly good looking speaker and seems to suggest real vfm. If it's beautiful form gives a clue to how well it functions, that would be a very fine thing indeed. There will have to be some heavy use of Google translate, unless there's an English version of the site somewhere. Many thanks for this eye opener I will be on to it!
Re the Mona Kea.: It looks as if it's an open design, yes? Sadly, I don't have the competence or knowledge to select my own components - hence paying more for someone like TG to handle that aspect for me. It looks like a good call for others on this site though.
Yes, its a open design and it's no problem to select the components. I can help you if you struggle with something.
A list of all crossover parts you can find here:
http://www.donhighend.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Warenkorb-Mona-Kea-Stand-05.05.2020.pdf
Unfortunately there is no English version of this page. But all the necessary information should be easy to find.
The Mona Kea can be built both closed and bass reflex. Bass reflex is very good for really large rooms and if you like a lot of deep bass. Personally, I like the closed version even more, because it plays even clearer and cleaner in the bass. Since the tubes are on the back, you can test both and close them if necessary.
In the midrange, the MK also plays very cleanly and never exhausting even at high levels. The drivers are quite cheap, but of excellent acoustic quality. And the AMT tweeter is one of the best available on the market.
Alex (donhighend) is one of the most famous DIY developers in Germany. He proves again and again how well speakers can play with the right tuning. And the Mona Kea is his masterpiece I would say.
We always try to find the drivers with the best price / performance ratio for our speakers and not just use the most expensive ones.
In the gallery on our website there are also some comments from people who built our speakers. For example, one wrote about the MK:
"Extremely clean and deep in the CB version, a bit stronger and more powerful than the BR. Also voices, timbre and treble reproduction at a veritable reference level. Especially surprising for listeners of these boxes was how amazingly lifelike, free and emotionally appealing voices and instruments are in the room - almost tangible! "
A list of all crossover parts you can find here:
http://www.donhighend.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Warenkorb-Mona-Kea-Stand-05.05.2020.pdf
Unfortunately there is no English version of this page. But all the necessary information should be easy to find.
The Mona Kea can be built both closed and bass reflex. Bass reflex is very good for really large rooms and if you like a lot of deep bass. Personally, I like the closed version even more, because it plays even clearer and cleaner in the bass. Since the tubes are on the back, you can test both and close them if necessary.
In the midrange, the MK also plays very cleanly and never exhausting even at high levels. The drivers are quite cheap, but of excellent acoustic quality. And the AMT tweeter is one of the best available on the market.
Alex (donhighend) is one of the most famous DIY developers in Germany. He proves again and again how well speakers can play with the right tuning. And the Mona Kea is his masterpiece I would say.
We always try to find the drivers with the best price / performance ratio for our speakers and not just use the most expensive ones.
In the gallery on our website there are also some comments from people who built our speakers. For example, one wrote about the MK:
"Extremely clean and deep in the CB version, a bit stronger and more powerful than the BR. Also voices, timbre and treble reproduction at a veritable reference level. Especially surprising for listeners of these boxes was how amazingly lifelike, free and emotionally appealing voices and instruments are in the room - almost tangible! "
Rese66, thank you so much for the link to Quint and the list of (Jantzen sourced!) parts.
Comments on cb vs reflex possibilities extremely useful and comments on mid range very apposite indeed. This gets more and more interesting and over the next 24 hours, I will explore further. I think I can get my head round the drawings and plans. I haven't managed to enlarge them yet, but I'll persist.
Thank you also for your very kind offer of support. If I commit, I'm sure i will need some!
Comments on cb vs reflex possibilities extremely useful and comments on mid range very apposite indeed. This gets more and more interesting and over the next 24 hours, I will explore further. I think I can get my head round the drawings and plans. I haven't managed to enlarge them yet, but I'll persist.
Thank you also for your very kind offer of support. If I commit, I'm sure i will need some!
And I suppose I should just ask whether you have any comment to make re my 25m2 room and speaker positioning parameters (1.5m side walls, 85cm max. front face of speakers to front wall ...
The Mona Kea is not as huge as it often looks in the pictures. 25m2 are no problem at all if the speakers are not squeezed directly into the corners.
I have a picture here with a two-way speaker with 6.5 "drivers in comparison:
This is the "Audimax Core" from the German diy magazine HobbyHifi. Without cabinet, they costs 2,700 euros per pair and could not keep up in terms of sound and sound pressure level with the MK.
The closed box will probably work better for you too, but that's always a matter of taste.
I have a picture here with a two-way speaker with 6.5 "drivers in comparison:
This is the "Audimax Core" from the German diy magazine HobbyHifi. Without cabinet, they costs 2,700 euros per pair and could not keep up in terms of sound and sound pressure level with the MK.
The closed box will probably work better for you too, but that's always a matter of taste.
Attachments
TG turns around a great number of designs. Not all of them receive the same attention. Some things get measured on one driver and not measured on the next which then gets chosen for a design. The cookie cutter Xovers for on-axis performance and then some commentary regarding listening impressions. So you kind of have to read between the lines and check if the speaker has a decent following.
Why not consider Elsinores? that is if you can afford 85L cabinets. This is kind of TG's Nomex 164 only doubled. I made them because the comments about the original Peerless drivers from Joe R. and Troels G. practically coincided. The design has another iteration now with I think SBAcoustics drivers. Check out the dedicated thread. I am not using them right now (I have too many good speakers as I keep building/experimenting 🙂, but they are great (warmish) sounding and very forgiving on the amp. Great vocals.
my build can be seen here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread-161.html#post3618366
the only thing about Elsinores is the listening distance required of say 3m+ so the sound top to bottom can best integrate. I angle them back about 5deg and toe them in. place them half a meter off he wall not to interfere with the port in the back and you are good to go. tried and true design with a thread alive for years.
Why not consider Elsinores? that is if you can afford 85L cabinets. This is kind of TG's Nomex 164 only doubled. I made them because the comments about the original Peerless drivers from Joe R. and Troels G. practically coincided. The design has another iteration now with I think SBAcoustics drivers. Check out the dedicated thread. I am not using them right now (I have too many good speakers as I keep building/experimenting 🙂, but they are great (warmish) sounding and very forgiving on the amp. Great vocals.
my build can be seen here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread-161.html#post3618366
the only thing about Elsinores is the listening distance required of say 3m+ so the sound top to bottom can best integrate. I angle them back about 5deg and toe them in. place them half a meter off he wall not to interfere with the port in the back and you are good to go. tried and true design with a thread alive for years.
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"TG turns around a great number of designs. Not all of them receive the same attention"
You touch on that nagging feeling that prevented me from pulling the trigger in 2017 and is still bugging me now. This time round, the contributions on this thread are giving me the confidence to look a little further than this not so comfortable, comfort Zone. I have long been aware of the Elsinore thread, somewhere in the background. It's so nice to get a steer from the source! Btw. 3 metres is where I do most of my listening, sat at my desk - which, of course, I built myself. Thank you koja. I will pursue - hope it doesn't take me as many years to get started on my build.
You touch on that nagging feeling that prevented me from pulling the trigger in 2017 and is still bugging me now. This time round, the contributions on this thread are giving me the confidence to look a little further than this not so comfortable, comfort Zone. I have long been aware of the Elsinore thread, somewhere in the background. It's so nice to get a steer from the source! Btw. 3 metres is where I do most of my listening, sat at my desk - which, of course, I built myself. Thank you koja. I will pursue - hope it doesn't take me as many years to get started on my build.
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Many thanks, I've dipped into HobbyHi Fi a couple of times over the past week or so and I read that review with the reference to the Audimax Core earlier this evening - great picture!
Like I mentioned, I have nothing to gain from promoting Elsinores. I have a nicely looking pair, cherry veneered and with solid mahogany inserts on the front baffle, sitting in corner covered by nylon. I am currently kicking off an expensive speaker project just for the sake of designing something unconventional. This hobby is about a discovery process for me.
However, I can tell you that as far as performance/cost ratio goes, probably nothing beats Elsinores if one has enough room for those boxes and does not listen too close. Joe R. beat this design to death by putting in a zillion of hours, and some followers even improved on his XO design and the waveguide design. And Troels G. shared honest comments about the vocal reproduction quality of those mass produced Peerless drivers.
If you can get the machined waveguide from Joel Wesseling or joe R., you should consider it. (p.s. I believe Joel sold off top of the line B&W speakers after making Elsinores as the difference in performance in his application did not justify the investment).
I find two things very interesting with this speaker: I have a bunch of classA Pass-design amps I use in multi-amped systems, and they can make a great deal of difference in top to bottom control of other speakers; But with Elsinores even the commercial, run-of-the-mill Bclass amps sound very decent. I am guessing the speaker has a fair amount of nice sounding 2nd order distortion (I did not bother to measure). This is not to say that a nice amp cannot make a noticeable difference, but the benefit is reduced. The impedance plot of Elsinores is ruler flat, and joe R. can tell you tons about the current to voltage phasing etc.
The other thing is that despite being a ported design it never sounds boomy. joe R. actually had help from others in designing the bass section. in my limited understanding they advised the box tuning slightly below the capability of the drivers so they face a bit of acoustic impedance seen in sealed applications. Very interesting approach.
I was even thinking for a while about making another iteration of Elsinores on my own, with some kevlar B&W drivers, but did not feel the project was different enough to invest into, so I went into OBs etc.
However, I can tell you that as far as performance/cost ratio goes, probably nothing beats Elsinores if one has enough room for those boxes and does not listen too close. Joe R. beat this design to death by putting in a zillion of hours, and some followers even improved on his XO design and the waveguide design. And Troels G. shared honest comments about the vocal reproduction quality of those mass produced Peerless drivers.
If you can get the machined waveguide from Joel Wesseling or joe R., you should consider it. (p.s. I believe Joel sold off top of the line B&W speakers after making Elsinores as the difference in performance in his application did not justify the investment).
I find two things very interesting with this speaker: I have a bunch of classA Pass-design amps I use in multi-amped systems, and they can make a great deal of difference in top to bottom control of other speakers; But with Elsinores even the commercial, run-of-the-mill Bclass amps sound very decent. I am guessing the speaker has a fair amount of nice sounding 2nd order distortion (I did not bother to measure). This is not to say that a nice amp cannot make a noticeable difference, but the benefit is reduced. The impedance plot of Elsinores is ruler flat, and joe R. can tell you tons about the current to voltage phasing etc.
The other thing is that despite being a ported design it never sounds boomy. joe R. actually had help from others in designing the bass section. in my limited understanding they advised the box tuning slightly below the capability of the drivers so they face a bit of acoustic impedance seen in sealed applications. Very interesting approach.
I was even thinking for a while about making another iteration of Elsinores on my own, with some kevlar B&W drivers, but did not feel the project was different enough to invest into, so I went into OBs etc.